Altruisme interdite!

[Chancer]

You may have read or heard stories of people giving a helping hand being classed as working on the black or travail dissimilé but this is the first time that I have seen a case brought in my region. I will translate the article from our local paper so it may read a bit strange!

Can we give a hand to a neighbour without risking prosecution in front fo a tribunal? That ipso facto is the question to which the judges of Peronne will reply when giving the result of their deliberations on the 2nd of March.

Tha affair took place in Allaines, village of 400 inhabitants near to Peronne, a suburb where people dont rush back to their tower block as soon as it gets dark, here we chat with our neighbours and even do each other favours.

Jean, a farmer who had retired in 2003 at 56 years old in 2007 was worried that the sheet roof on one of his barns needed attention, rust had taken hold and he wasnt up to doing the job on his own (il ne se sent pas d'attaque pour y remédier). Two of his close neighbours offered to paint it for him, for payment? No, they didnt even think for a minute about it, several years before Jean came at the wheel of his bulldozer to help one of them dig a foundation, when the other needed a pile of stones he gave them to him and also lent him his tractor to transport them.

Who has not heard of this, at least in a rural area? A farmer gives a sack of grain to his plumber friend who raises pigeons, "how much do I owe you?" asks the plumber, nothing replies the paysan, "we will be quits when you will have to repair a tap or something".

Except that it is illegal according to the inspectors and management of la Direction de la travail and the MSA who miraculously turned up on site on the 13th September 2007, - I think that this is sarcasm as most people are aware of the couvreur who denounced them.

For them (DDT & MSA) it was a case of working on the black because (I will leave this bit in French to not distort by translation)-

"n'est bénévole que <<celui qui apporte un concours non solicité, spontané et desinteressé, et exercé surtout au profit d'une association humanitaire et caritative ou d'oeuvre sociale>>"

Jurisprudence seems to agree with them: <<il ne peut y avoir de bénévolat lorsque la presence de la personne est nécessaire à la réalisation de 'activité à laquelle elle était affectée>>

Jean who was absent from the court on Monday would have therefore had to employ his two friends, pay the social charges (on zero euros of salary?) and even provide them with the most up to date safety equipment as, bad luck would have it the peak of his his roof was higher than 6 metres. 

For his lawyer its a nightmare situation, "that of a savage world where altruism would no longer exist. A world where the entrance would be barred by a great big banner saying "here we have to hate each other we dont help each other".

He asked for the charges to be dropped.

The second passage in French re: jurisprudence confused me (which is why I left it in French) does it really mean that it cant be seen as charitable if you have need to be there to help rather than just giving a donation?

If that is the case I am going to ask the Mairies of the communes that I have helped with their "chantier nature" to pay towards my pension!

Cor! Bloomin hard work this translation isnt it? I can see why so many of you use google translate!

Many thanks to clair who managed to retrieve what I wrote on the Complete France groundhog day the 4th February.

 

[Tricia]

There was a similar case reported in the Depeche du Midi last year - heard at the tribunal at Auch.Something very minor, but technically illegal.

All it takes is a jealous neighbour or rival artisan to upset the apple cart.

[Chancer]

Was the householder found guilty Tricia?

[bigears]

hi

what happened to a number of posts on this topic.  My two have disappeared, I cannot understand why, I've had no communications on the subject.  Whats going on?

[Cat]

Re missing posts...

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1991550/ShowPost.aspx

[Chancer]

Well I am at least glad that there were some replies even if they cant be read [:(]

[chris pp]

Libertie, egalitie, et fraternitie.

Chris

[Tricia]

[quote user="Chancer"]Was the householder found guilty Tricia?[/quote]

It was in Feb. last year:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1596033/ShowPost.aspx

Sounds like he got a 2000€ fine.

[steve]

We look after pools and gardens  for a living - one of my customers has given the grass cutting and pool maintenance to a retired Brit who lives in the same village as we do, (as does the 'ex' customer) and it turns out, (in their own words) he cuts the grass and looks after the pool in return for using the pool when the customer isnt there.

Is this OK?

I dont think MSA will be too happy!

Steve

[chris pp]

This is like the selling eggs thread.[blink]

This type of thing goes on all over France, (and everywhere else for that matter), why do people want to try and make a big deal out of it? I can't say that it ever bothered me when I was working here if other people were "helping each other" or even if people were working on the black and I freely admit to using such arrangements myself, it may not be strictly legal but it often makes sense.[;-)]

Chris

[steve]

In a way, I agree with you - but, IF i was having a hard time of it due to the state of the world (Im not - in fact its improved for us!) I would be a bit cheesed off, as would anyone in this position. Its obvious he is being paid for doing what he is doing, if he is doing this  one, how many more is he doing on the black?

I take the time to register, get insurance, pay my contributions etc - why cant he?

Steve

[Swissie]

There is a fine line between fraud and just giving a hand ... not always easy to define. We 'tit for tat' all the time with neighbours - the skills we exchange would cost them an awful lot more than the ones they have on offer, but it is irrelevant to us. One hour teaching for me is the same as one hour ironing- for instance. We all help each other here and it's great. I would happily offer to host, feed and give French course for somebody who would fit a shower-room for us. I think they would be quids in, but it wouldn't matter to me - work for work (and making sure insurance is covered). What would the legal position be in France? In the UK most towns have an official website for swapping skills, with the approval of the Council. I have often given language lessons (French, English or German) in exchange for other help. As long as it is a genuine swap, it's fine by me.

[chris pp]

The answer to your question Steve "I take the time to register, get insurance, pay my contributions etc - why cant he?" is probably because he is "a retired Brit" and who in their right mind if retired would register for doing a bit here and there with all the ramifications that involves?

What would the legal position be in France? That's the point of this thread Swissie, all these things are strictly speaking illegal in France.

Chris

 

 

[Swissie]

Daft though - my neighbour's son needs help with his English - I hate ironing. How can that be illegal? My OH wants to learn how to play the piano, another neighbour needs help with her son's German - great. And so on - always done it, always will!

What is the situation with exchanging accommodation for holidays - a more and more popular option.

[bigears]

hi

If you want to be really silly, everyone should register.  I was given a wooden chalet by a neighbour, I asked how much she weanted, she said do some jobs for me.  I replied I already did small jobs for her.  I'm retired I would never take money for any job I do.  People who are working illegally know it, the rest of us can get on being good neighbours without the need to worry.   

[Chancer]

[quote user="bigears"]hi
 People who are working illegally know it, the rest of us can get on being good neighbours without the need to worry.   
[/quote]

That is what the Farmer not unreasonably thought!

We will see if the tribunal agree with him when they give their verdict.

[Swissie]

Just before we moved here last March, several tons of snow slid of our roof- taking a third one the East side off, tiles, slats, felting, guttering and all- the snow was up to the second window, pressing on lower windows and filling the entrance porch. Our farmer neighbour and next door neighbour worked all day with a tractor and spades to clear the lot- then called the roofer to make secure. THEN they called us in the UK. That is what I call good neighbours! Since we've moved OH has given acupuncture treatment to both sets of neighbours for various ailments, and I have supported the kids with their homework. Send the cops if you wish - but this is what life is all about- helping each other out. Of course with elderly neighbours, help goes one way only - and that is fine too.

[Chancer]

I completely agree Odile and that is why I was so shocked to read the report in the local paper.

I hope that common sense will prevail but I suspect that the application of the law wont allow that to happen.

I will try to remember to look at the paper headlines around the trial date as at €1.20 per day I only allow myself the luxury of one paper per month, the article I posted I pinched from the paper in the salle d"attente of the Contrôle Technique center!

[Jay]

[quote user="chris pp"]

This is like the selling eggs thread.[blink]

[/quote]

This is not like the selling of eggs thread at all. The key word you chose was "selling". The OP in the egg thread was ASKING if it was legal to provide a regulated foodstuff for cash which is totally different to helping out a friend and neighbour with the odd job. The authorities should be ashamed this case has gone so far.