breadmaking

[Patf]

I was wondering if you still make your own bread, idun (or TU.) ?

And if so, what kind of flour you're using now that you are back in England?

I've just started a batch, made from Dove Farm wholemeal flour, which someone brings over for me (at a price!)

Wondering what kind of flour other people use, and whether hand or machine made?

I prefer handmade, as I make 4 good-sized loaves at a time.

[Clair]

Pat,

As you know, I make my own by hand.

I use a T65 flour from a mill in the Cantal, which I buy in 5kg bags from Gamm Vert.

A bag will last about 1 month and costs 0.96€/kg (4.80€ for 5 kg).

I make a batch of dough every 7-10 days. With a batch in the fridge, a fresh loaf is about 1 hr away.

(750 g  / 750 ml of warm water + 1 kg of flour +  10 g of dried yeast + 20g of coarse salt; mix the lot just enough to ensure there's no dry flour - no kneading required - and keep at room temp for 2 hrs before sticking in the fridge).

A batch keeps in the fridge up to 2 weeks, but it's usually gone in 10 days.

I tend to bake in the afternoon (cheap electricity) and I use a Remoska, which makes it even cheaper than if I were to use the oven.

The resulting bread has all the characteristics of a mild sourdough loaf, which might not be what you're looking for. It is very different from the traditional British loaf...

[idun]

Well the cheapest and most cheerful white flour I see. And then for some of my bread I mix that half and half with whole meal. I always use fresh yeast, which I only seem to be able to get in huge quantity for little cost at Morrisons.

We still get very good bread with cheap flour. I did a 'test' with good quality bread flour and my cheap stuff and the difference was in the taste, which was, when eating dry bread, tasted better for using the more expensive flour. However, as we don't usually eat dry bread at all I stick with the 'budget' version.

Never used a machine and always hand make using Elizabeth Davids method of little yeast and leaving it to rise very slowly.

I usually make 2-4 kilos at a time and a make a mix of shaped loaves and buns which I allow to cool and then cut into the size pieces that we use.

What wonderful therapy kneading bread is, I can pummell it, bash it and it is all the better for it, the rougher I am the better the bread.

[mint]

Don't make my own bread other than in a machine, idun, but I still make your mascarpone pastry when I want to impress anybody.

[Patf]

Yes, I find breadmaking therapeutic too, Idun, and the smell that fills the house, when it's rising and baking!

Claire - I've cut down a lot on kneading now too, and find it doesn't make much difference. My recipe is similar to yours, except that I use quite a lot of oil (sunflower.)

 Do you mean you just store the unbaked dough in the fridge? I might try that, though we don't eat that much bread.

Having said that, husband has just started having bread for breakfast instead of muesli, and he likes to cut it in doorsteps, so it doesn't last so long.

[Clair]

[quote user="Patf"]Clair

 Do you mean you just store the unbaked dough in the fridge? I might try that, though we don't eat that much bread.[/quote]

Yes, that's exactly what I do.

I mix the dough directly in a 5 l plastic tub with a lid. It needs to be that big as the dough doubles in size when it proves.

The proving can be done at room temp or in the fridge.

My standard method is to keep the tub of freshly-mixed dough at room temp for 2 hours, then put it in the fridge for up to 12-15 days if need be.

I never wash the tub and any scraps of left-over dough is a bonus, as they act as a starter/ferment for the next batch.

The slow proving at a cold temperature improves the taste of the bread.

It's a bit like using the old-fashioned method of mixing a ferment or starter of flour + cold water + yeast, and keeping it in the fridge overnight before using it to prepare the dough with the rest of the ingredients the following day (example here).

This method is based on a US method I read about here and you can see a video about here. I believe I mentioned the book to you off-forum a while back.

I had to adapt the recipes, as the book gives measurements in US cups (so irritating... [6]), but the authors have recently mentioned they were bringing out an updated version with metric and imperial measurements for their non-US readers.

You know from previous discussions here and elsewhere that I am a bread-making enthusiast and I can honestly say I have found this to be the easiest and most rewarding method for everyday fresh bread. Ever.

If you want to try it, there are a few helpful tips I can give you, which will make your first attempts easier than mine were!

[Patf]

I'll try that next time, Claire, and let you know how it goes.

 I could probably use the small washing-up bowl which I use normally for mixing, covered with clingfilm, and it will be 1.5k of flour.

[Ian]

If it's strong white flour you want, in France, the best I've found is Soezie Surfina, from Gamme Vert. Does the business (by hand). As the vicar said....

[Clair]

[quote user="Ian"]If it's strong white flour you want, in France, the best I've found is Soezie Surfina, from Gamme Vert. Does the business (by hand). As the vicar said....

[/quote]

It is very good, but so so expensive... [:(]

Their website.

[idun]

I only knead until it feels 'right' and then it is. It never takes the 10 minutes suggested, best still, get my husband to do it as with his strength it makes good dough very quickly.

I use olive oil in my bread and more than any recipe suggests. As I use little yeast and long rising, I well oil my bowl and roll the dough in the oil until it is well coated before I cover it. It stops any crusting or drying out during the rising process.

I would never use sour dough. My friend does and she has to put a great lump of dough aside for the next time, and frankly it takes up too much room in the fridge and her bread is very nice, but so is mine. At this point I do a nice gallic shrug and smile.

[Patf]

I've never tried to make sourdough either, though I fully intended to at one time. Seems too time consuming. I specially ordered and bought a breadmaking book to find out more.

I joined a breadmaking forum (I think Claire joined too) which is very interesting and many of the the members there make sourdough.

The forum is called The Fresh Loaf - sorry still can't do links on here.

[Clair]

The Fresh Loaf

(beware: US Cup measurements... [I])

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Patf"]I've never tried to make sourdough either, though I fully intended to at one time. Seems too time consuming. I specially ordered and bought a breadmaking book to find out more.

I joined a breadmaking forum (I think Claire joined too) which is very interesting and many of the the members there make sourdough.

The forum is called The Fresh Loaf - sorry still can't do links on here.

[/quote]

Ms Gluey and I are presently eating wondrous sourdough bread: made using heavy organic stone ground flour (Bacheldre) and Molasses.

I mix circa 20% Stone Ground Organic Rye (Bacheldre again) to the wholemeal. Two huge freeform loaves: cut in half and then into the freezer after cooled, wrapped in plastic bags.

Heavy sourdough bread does enjoy significant kneading: you can feel the dough "Come alive" under your fingers.

It also takes longer to initially prove: and second prove too.

I'm using a base culture I originally cultivated over two years ago: keep it in the 'fridge and refresh it with flour and water periodically.

Just back last week from la belle France and in our canton town (18 mins away from home) we have a new baker: who uses a wood-fired "Black" oven: to which I was introduced and we chatted about bread and ovens.

The best simple guide to making an organism culture I found some years back was Here:

And that was the method I used.

I take 90% of the culture to make the "sponge", which is left overnight: and then the dough: then simply refresh the culture with flour and yeast and leave it open in the kitchen for 24 hours: refresh it again and whack it back in the 'fridge with foil covering the (Plastic large yoghurt!) container with a few holes pierced in the foil.

Even when using baker's yeast (Which is the only other way I bake) I always make a starter; or Poolish (French) or Biga (Italian).

When you have savoured sourdough, everything else palls............

[IMG]http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/PercyPee/Sourdough/SourdoughWholemealWithRye06-09002.jpg[/IMG]

[idun]

Your bread looks wonderful. I would hope that all home baked hand made bread would be just as good.

I disagree completely about the better taste, absolutely disagree. I can put rye and molasses in mine, I put all sorts in mine, every so often to ring in the different tastes and textures, as each 'different' ingredient has it's effect on the dough and bread.

If sourdough bread had really been that much better I would have used it. And the only difference we found was when I used expensive white bread flour, it had more flavour than my usual cheap and cheerful flour for a basic loaf, but not enough to make me change over.

I/we don't hesitate to go the extra mile to make things we like, ie we used to make english sausages and pork pies when we lived in France, now it is french saussison, chipolatas and pate de campagne, merguez is next on the list to do.

[Gluestick]

Out of interest, idun, how much sourdough bread have you made and what types?

[idun]

That is the thing, I haven't. I have lots of friends who make it and they make darned good bread, but it has never been any better than mine, I love my bread and theirs would have had to have knocked my socks off. Now that would have decided me as to whether I wanted to give it a go and the hassle of keeping my sourdough going.

We started seriously breadmaking in 1977 and even though we have had odd moments when we haven't made it for various reasons, we have been baking since then.

Over the years, I have tasted other people's bread and asked how they have made it and my methods have changed. The biggest being changing to the Elizabeth David method of little yeast and long rising time.

I ring in the changes with my flour and ingredients as well as doing my basic bread. I have been doing it that long, I don't even weigh anything any more. I know by the feel and eye if it is right or not.

I also make paysanne brioche and I make patisserie brioche too, my croissants taste right, but I am lousy at folding them properly, they look like a lunatic was let loose at the boulangerie, presentation was never my strongest point. I also make english fruit loaves and tea cakes and ofcourse pizza dough which I use for fougasse too.

As I said, if something really appears to be worth the extra effort we do go for it, but not sourdough.

It is a funny thing making bread, it is the only thing I make that gives me so much satisfaction, from so little, such a wonderful food is produced, the smell, taste texture-

fabulous.

Now a question, if sourdough should make better bread, why isn't it better than mine?

[Gluestick]

Thanks for your detailed and most interesting response.

[:)]

Mrs Gluey and I also have been making bread and other leavened baking items for many years.

We share your obvious passion!

I started baking sourdough, mainly since I was seeking that elusive wonderful flavour I remembered from my childhood: loving bread and decent conserves and jam with and good butter above many other things.

As a kid, I was often sent to the local bakers by my mum: and regularly whacked for nicking bits of the crust whilst walking home.

In the past few years I have copiously researched the topic: and perhaps the most interesting to me, has been reading about French artisan bakers using wheat strains from the French national heritage museum, to recapture real "French" bread.

Which, of course, is not really French at all! It is a combination of Viennese method, added to Polish technique.

I have a pretty good palate (Educated on good wines!) and whilst still, naturally searching for that elusive perfection in bread, have established, to my own satisfaction, that decent bread can only really be achieved if using top quality organic flour, stone ground on old French millstones. Modern steel roller milling changes the structure of the flour as it overheats. Slow turning millstones do not.

Raymond Blanc (Whom I admire more than the majority of the present gaggle of poseur catering "Frying Pan" chefs) insists on top quality flour: and buys all his own supplies from Shipton Mill.

With your obvious developed bread baking skill, I do urge you to at least combine this with some sourdough baking: maintaining the culture, once established is actually little trouble: as I stated, earlier, my own sits quiescent in the 'fridge and has little attention between bakes.

Artisan bakers guard their culture jealously: it tends to sit in a vat in the prep room and is refreshed daily: however, and of course, they are using it daily: in significant quantity.

Slow Prove: again, artisan bakers (Unlike the majority using the appalling Chorleywood Baking Process - For instant results and maximum profit) prove very slowly indeed, keeping their dough in the retarder room overnight: the room switching to gentle heat early in the morning, to prepare the loaves for baking.

Home baking suffers the limitation of a maximum temperature for most domestic ovens of circa 250 degrees C. Wood-Fired traditional "Black" bread ovens, of course, reach as high as 800 degrees C when the "Burn" has finished.

I am planning a small wood-fired "Black" oven for the garden in France, as a future project.

I can't wait!

You can see a small sample of my own baking here:

Nice to share a passion.

[:)]

[Iceni]

idun, if you haven't made sourdough bread how can you be so sure that yours would not knock spots off your other types of bread?

John

[idun]

Ofcourse I cannot know unless I try, but as friends have sworn by it for years and I frankly haven't found that extra 'magic' in theirs, then I have never felt the need, or is that knead?

[Gluestick]

Qualitative Analysis perhaps?

On the basis you know your own developed bread making skills and level of expertise.

Whilst I know many people who make their own bread, most do so in a bread-maker; and even those who make by hand and bake free, haven't put the time in to achieve really decent bread, for my taste: only one exception I know. A friend who also bakes sourdough.

However, like Mrs Gluey and I she and her spouse (Our vicar and his wife who are close friends) are well into real food and organics and have an allotment. Eating with them is a pleasure, as a veritable cornucopia of veggies is always on the table!

So, how about applying your developed bread-making skills to one sourdough loaf, made using top quality organic flour (With NO chemical expanders and additives!) and reporting back to tell us, no difference?

I had a young acquaintance once, I was helping through some personal difficulties.

Offered him some red wine and he said, emphatically "I don't like wine!"

"By this do you mean red or white wine?"

"All wine! I don't like it!"

"Well, "I said, " Italy alone enjoys some 11,000 denominated wines: then there is France, Spain and elsewhere!"

"Tell me, "I asked " Which wines have you tried?"

"Never had it!" he said "Don't like it!!"

Perplexed I asked him: "Well, how do you know you "Don't Like It" if you have never tried it?"

"I just know I won't like it!", he replied vehemently.

At this point I gave up..........

He used to enjoy a glass of brandy though: I hadn't the patience to educate him!

[Www]

[Patf]

But idun HAS tried it - she tasted some made by friends.

I agree with her the taste for bread is very personal, and we know what we like.

I do admit, though that I'm an impatient person, and I like to start at about 8am, and get my 4 handmade loaves baked and into the freezer by mid-day. Goes back to the days when I was working fulltime I suppose.

[idun]

With my method Patf, you'd be better doing your dough at 8pm and then doing the rest the following morning.

This is all getting a little too much for me really.

There are so many other factors involved in the eating of bread, ie the quality of the butter used, the fillings for sandwiches and the taste of the stews etc it gets dunked in.

I don't do dry bread, I can, but given the choice I never do, even my neighbours from Lille didn't.

[Gluestick]

Yesterday's Baking: Mixed Grain - White, Wholemeal and Rye.

Poolish made with honey.

[IMG]http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/PercyPee/Sourdough/MixedGrain.jpg[/IMG]

[Patf]

Do you eat it straight from the oven, Gluey? Looks delicious.

I sometimes put poppy seeds on too, or sesame seeds.

[Gluestick]

Depends, Pat.

This time around, we were still feasting on the last batch of Sourdough Wholemeal, so the two new loaves were cut in half, when cool, bagged and went straight into the freezer.

Excepting I did nick the crust off one for a taste test with some decent French beurre doux! [Www]

New flour and a slightly different combination of wholemeal, rye and white.

Gorgeous!

I adore baked poppy seeds.