shimble Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 i was wondering what the best method and tools should be used when drilling well seasoned hardwood i think i want to predrill 35mm thick oak floorboards to fix to beams, appreciate any advise, oh and while im here what would be recommended to treat a dry wooden floor i want to nourish the wood and then protect it, murky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Do you want to conceal the screws? In which case use a pilot drill with counterbore and then cut plugs and tap them into the holes. From my experience that will be a very enjoyable experience... not. Drill slowly. Nails would probably be better - smaller heads, punch them below the surface.Could you use tongue and groove and secret nail through the tongues? That would be easier and would look better.As for finish, you could oil or wax, but I don't know where you are in France. If you are in a humid area a varnish might be better - in Normandy our waxed furniture loses its finish quickly and a sort of bloom appears on the wax surface.What do you mean by "protect it, murky"? And 35mm is pretty thick for floorboarding - what are you going to do on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkhunter Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 If your floorboards are Oak and well seasoned then pre drill even for nails, oak is the most unforgiving wood ever when it is old. Its akin to hammering nails into bell metal. If you can, then pre drill with counterbore as dick says and then plug the holes.I use a Paslode nail gun and even with that the nails kick back the gun with such force, old oak is one tough sonofabitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I dropped some seasoned oak and it broke (well, split) - true! Though it was a small section. I have ruined a number of plug cutters trying to make plugs to put into some faux colombage - I have now given up and used softwood stained to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Dick where do you buy youre plug cutters? The one I use (12mm) is getting a bit tired of late, not surprised as ive made thousands with it, softwood, chestnut and oak.Shimble, if you drill for screwing the 35mm (!) I reckon you might wanna drill big enough so the screw doesnt cut a thread in the board, & dont ask to much of the screw as the oak will defeat it. In theory use stainless steels screw, in practice dont!.Bon courage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I bought 2, one from Screwfix - just not up to the job - I'm pretty certain the other one (which sort-of works) is a Trend, 14mm (awkward in the UK) bought on order from a local tool shop. Cost loads! Looking at the Trend catalogue they no longer do 14mm, and if they did they would be £33.50. Not cheap when you blunt them in seasoned oak!http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/profinder/results.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 i was planning on drilling to nail and not screw i could use secret nails in the tongue and groove but i dont really know how to go about this and yes up till now i have found drilling the beams like steel. i was wondering if i can get special hardwood drill bits and where from i was planning on using stainless nails i think i saw some special hardwood nails at screwfix will i be able to hire a nail gun if not are they expensive and am i wasting my time with a hammer? as far as nourishing and protecting wood in my first post i am referring to an existing hardwood floor that needs treating the wood is dry and has no varnish or other product on it. i have used linseed oil on the staircase which i believe is in walnut so i am looking for something to nourish and bring out the natural colour of the wood with a view to varnish afterwards. i hope all this makes sense and i appreciate your time and as far as "murky" its franglais pour merci!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Shimble - can you please have a go at punctuation in your posts - this is hard to read. Not a cuss - but you are asking for help, don't make it harder!Sorry - didn't see the 'murky' joke.Drill bits - just use expensive ones!Still not sure why you are using such hefty timber. I've never used a Paslode gun, and I'm not sure how well it will handle an inch and a half of oak! Someone with experience will let us know. They are certainly quite expensive to buy, but that will depend on whether or not you will have repeat use - I imagine they can be hired, but you may have to travel.Could you take the wood to a timber yard and pay them to mill it into tongue and groove and also thickness it so that it is easier to use? You could then buy/hire a tongue nailer and conceal the fixings.Personally I like the look of oiled floors, but I find varnish much more practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Shimble, lets go back to the begginning.You've got 35mm boards that you're planning to lay as a floor, you say they're seasoned, what do you understand as being seasoned? How has the timber been stored and for how long? What is the moisture content? It's important Shimble. Is the timber planed already, strait edged and squared or not? I can catagorically promise you that if you use timber that has not been dried down to an appropriate moisture content the shrinkage in an interior project will be sufficient for you to have to be taking the 'floor' up again in...say three years. Unless you're happy with 2-4mm gaps that get filled with dust and dirt?In truth, 35mm is outrageously thick for boarding, how does that affect doors?The fixing is the easy part...and no, please don't even think of a Paslode unless you're a bodger who doesn't mind what the finished project looks like.Finishing is down to preference and taste.A lot more info is needed shimble before any definitive replies can be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 O.k. at the time of ordering the wood I was working in the wood yard (the yard cuts and dries all its own wood) so the wood was cut from the tree, it was then kiln dried for between 3 and 4 weeks. The wood was then sent to be tongue and grooved and possibly lightly planed. So the wood was cut at 35mm from the tree, after drying it has been worked this may have taken off a couple of mm, since then the wood has been dry stored flat for the last two years (ive been busy with other things).The wood is tongue and grooved on all four edges and each plank is probably about 20cm wide. I believe the wood has been planed, although I am not sure, but I think, yes, as this was done at the same time, as the tongue and groove was cut.I was advised by the wood merchant, (who as I say was both my boss and a friend) that the planks could either be done in 28mm or 35mm. These planks are for the upper floor on a barn. The span between the joists is about 80cms and the joists are 3mtr long. it is for this reason that i was advised to go for the slightly thicker planks to minimise flexing and sagging although i do need to brace between the joists i dont need to worry about doors as this is an empty barn anyway i hope this explains a little bit more if you have any other questions dont hesitate to post, i shall look forward to your responses many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 If it is already tongue and grooved (important information) then why not nail it through the tongue? Easiest, and the nails are concealed. You will have to pre-drill, which will be a pig of a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I'm just a little perplexed Shimble, you've worked in a wood yard, you accurately observe that wood is cut from trees! It seems that you've considered or have been advised on all the weight loads of your project and have seemingly been advised accordingly and have chosen what might appear to be correctly thicknessed boards....80cm centres is quite a space between joists....but you don't know how to drill a bit of Oak or whether to use a Paslode or indeed how floorboards might be appropriately and aesthetically fixed? Didn't you ask the chap who supplied you? Don't the proffessionals in the woodyard have a clue as to finishing Oak?Edit...I forgot to ask about the drying of the timber, 3-4 weeks means nothing. What was its start moisture content? How long had it been air dried before going in the kiln? What is the timbers finish moisture content? Questions questions questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 I was a labourer I have never seriously worked with wood before. i would like to do the job as well as possible that is why i am asking for advise yes i can talk to various carpenters and woodworkers, after three years in another line of work i am hunting for as much information asi can find rather than either having to pay someone or bodging it myselfi have no idea of the finished moisture content nor how to measure it these were not fresh cut trees and would imagine they were standing at least twelve months before cutting.We had a large contract with an italien company that bought chatigne to be used for building high class kitchens this wood was dried in the same manner i would like to think the wood is sufficiently aged and dried to use. I shall be contacting a carpenter who buys all his wood from the same yard and ask his advise aswell. He makes windows doors and staircases, amongst other things, so i would imagine he too needs to be carefull on the quality of his wood when considering the fine tolerances needed for his worki shall be investigating further i do not want to split the wood i want to do the job how it should be done properly i want to do the job once and i want to know that it has not been bodged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkhunter Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Must come back on the post about use of paslode guns, although i use my paslode guns, one roughing and one finishing, on most timbers i don't use it on oak, just too tough, however not all paslode users are bodgers.Hugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 OK, my apologies shimble. There's alot of trolls around.The Oak won't be hard to drill at all, nor will the plugs be hard to make, don't worry about it...unless you're a schoolteacher from Carshalton who doesn't seem to get the plug plot? You've got several options of fixing the boards. My personal favourite is to drill and plug, as you seem to be veering toward. OK it's a fair bit of extra work but if done well the results are really worthwhile.I'll write properly tommorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 ok thanks i think the plugging idea came from elswhere so when you get time i would appreciate your wisdom im not sure what you mean by drill and plug so if you can explain that a bit i can then seek further info on this the internet almost didnt exist when i bought this house now that i am in a position to spend some money and more importantly time on renovating so i want to spend the time to do things as best as i can. these forums are an eye opener none of this stuff was here ten years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 [quote user="hughmandy"]Must come back on the post about use of paslode guns, although i use my paslode guns, one roughing and one finishing, on most timbers i don't use it on oak, just too tough, however not all paslode users are bodgers.Hugh. [/quote]Oh me gawd I've got the Paslode anoraks on my back now! Do you guys just like the Orange colour? Bet you've got white PVC windows as well Hugh? ARRGHHH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Dear Paslode bodgers...erm sorry, users, thankyou for your private correspondences, and no, I am not a tree hugger, well perhaps for a second before I fell it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Wosa paslode???[8-)][8-)][B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 It's sort of an orange thing John that fires nails....it was designed purely for the bodgers and wannabes in our proffession....and of course those who don't have the time to do a job properly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Shimble - the drill and plug idea came from me (just call me 'Mr Elsewhere', I won't mind) when I thought you were planning to screw the boards down. To drill and plug you need 2 specialist pieces of equipment - a pilot drill with a counterbore, or a large and small drill bit, and a plug cutter. They need to match in size. The simplest method is to drill a small pilot hole and then part-drill a larger hole following the same track, so that you have a hole which starts out large and carried on small. You screw through this so that the screwhead is below the surface of the timber, inside the larger hole. You then cut a plug of the right size and drive it into the hole so that the screwhead is concealed. The plug is usually cut off flush using a gentleman's saw, and the surface sanded. If you use an offcut of the timber and align the grain you won't see it.A bit tedious when, like me, you have over 200 to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Shimble, if you have a look at this site it may help.http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Plug-Cutters-and-Plugs-207896.htm . They are a brilliant bunch to deal with and will post to France for £5 up to a kilo...If the link won't work just copy and paste it into the address bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 thanks all, certainly food for thought, but im not sure if im any the wiser will be more specific in future murky buckets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkhunter Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 John, chris is being biased to old style skills[:P] A paslode is a tool that is used almost without fail in the UK building trade, it is not used by bodgers exclusively, more so by qualified and trained joiners in the timber kit building industry. The need for such tools was brought about by ever increasing demand by companies trying to feed a need for more housing and as such speed was more often important than quality. If you were to watch any roofing company, here or in the UK you would most likely see a nail gun being used to fit tile battens, for speed and cost. There is a place for such tools, who uses a sander as opposed to sanding by hand, designed for speed and to ease muscle ache!!, are these people bodgers? Chris, do you not qualify as a bodger by using a chainsaw to fell trees? when i started working in the forestry i used an axe to snead trees. Basically, people who use mechanical tools are not necessarily bodgers, they just try to get the best use out of a tool they can. I shall sign off as a professional bodger/wannabe who does have the time to do a good job properly, in friendship, Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I wonder if it's 'cause chris is tooooo tight to buy one, rather spend the energy working up a thirst for a couple of pints of Abbot or 6X or Ruddles County or Black Sheep or Uley Old Spot or Directors. Had enough yet Chris? [B][B][B][6]I think that Chris is a big softie at hart really, just tries to hide it, but not very well !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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