Right of Way

[frexpt]

The owner of a house at the top of the track running down to our house has told us that he has a right away over part of the track to access a field at the end of his garden.  At various times he has told us that the previous owner of our house granted something in writing, but on another occasion that the right was given by an even earlier owner to this chaps' parents. 

He has so far been unable to produce anything in writing to us and the people we bought from say that they have signed nothing.  However, reading between the lines, I think this is something that may have rumbled on for some time and which our vendor didn't make us aware of.

We are not thrilled by the assumption of the right of way, particularly as they could access the field through their own garden and probably did at some point in the past.

It seems to me that whatever the situation actually is, it needs to be formalised.......but I am not sure where to go from here.

Any suggestions please?

 

[idun]

 Contact your notaire, and look at your paperwork. AND what do you want to do? Why do you have a track and have they a right to use that too?

[frexpt]

Nothing in our paperwork and we received a message from previous owner to the effect that notaire "couldn't find anything previously." That was what started alarm bells ringing about this potentially being an existing long-running dispute.

The track is the only access to our house and is clearly defined as in our ownership for the entire 300m length. The supposed right of way runs over the first 100m only and is out of sight of our house.

What is annoying is the basic assumption that they can just trot along a neighbour's land, where they have clearly planted veg across what was the original access to the field from their own garden.

The hole in the hedge on our drive and wire gate looks suspiciously recent.....i.e. within the last few years.

What also bothers me is wear and tear on the chemin and lack of inclination to contribute (physically or financially) to upkeep of the same. I am not bringing that up until we establish the correct legal position, as that may open another can of worms, of course.

We certainly don't want to fall out with neighbours and everything is very amicable at the moment....they just choose to ignore our requests for a copy of the right of way.

Maybe a trip to the Mairie would be an idea?

[idun]

We had problems with neighbours and we told them that if they required access then they would be required to pay a financial contribution towards the upkeep of the road in question. They declined and things changed a little.

 

And the Mairie, it was our Mairie that had us and our neighbours over from day one.

 

I suppose my attitude is that I got to the point where I didn't give a damn about anyone who was trying to 'use' me.

It is no longer amicable is it? they are perfectly aware that they are trying to have one over on you, innocent they are not, they know what they are doing and are playing on your ignorance and hesitation.  And that is my two penneths worth.

[Mikep]

Is it really worth the trouble? How much damage can he do using 100 metres of track? It's probably been used for hundreds of years anyway.

A few years ago, we got a summons out of the blue from people up the hill wanting to use the track behind our property - they hadn't even asked us or our neighbours if we had any objections, which we wouldn't have had before the summons. None of us made any formal objections anyway, but the legal case went on for a couple of years and cost them thousands in lawyers and geometres, and ruined any relationships they might have had with local inhabitants.

We went along to the court (Tribune de Grande Instance in Thonon les Bains), were asked to confirm who we were and then took no further part in the process. It was fascinating to see the lawyers all wearing gowns with their jeans and trainers visible underneath. I still have a beautifully-produced 12 page dossier with a metre-square detailed survey of all the properties affected and adjoining - a real work of art. I'm glad I didn't have to pay for it.

I suggest you smile, tell him he can use the track in exchange for a bottle of wine, and share it with him. Whatever happens, avoid lawyers!

[frexpt]

I think it is worth it in this instance. The chemin is the sole access to our house and the neighbour's use of it might escalate. At the moment, he seems to be using it on foot only, but the gateway now appears to be large enough for vehicles/machinery. There is the question of maintenance of the borders which will be damaged by frequent passge of vehicles.

There is also the possibilty of the chemin becoming obstructed by something parked outside the gate, which would give the absurd situation that we couldn't get to our own house over our own land.

I am keen not to allow the present situation become the thin end of the wedge.

If no vehicles are allowed, that takes away the majority of the concerns, so my inclination, if he cannot produce anything in writing (as he claims), is to offer a formally documented right of way on foot only.

If he wants to take a tractor into the field then he can take it through his own garden.

[idun]

And I wouldn't. I know of too many bad things that, when given a cm they take a km. EG going on holiday and return to find  fences up, land enclosed, planting.

We are not talking about 10 m of track here, but a 100 and a tractor or other heavy stuff could do quite a bit of damage. And a bottle of wine would cover? hein, would it? These people have access via their own land, now why, oh why do they want to use their neighbours? What possible reason have they got.

Where this idea that even in the smallest of places that everyone gets on, all happy and smiling and always full of bonhomie comes from, I have not got a clue. Or, is it the constant bonjours that do it, or at the odd fete, where ever one drinks too much, but there again, I have seen too many fights at these, our adorable garde champetre, in his cups and taking a pop at old enemies or new ones. Ah the glory of french village life! There are feuds in small villages that have been going on for centuries, to recent ones that are budding, emerging.

And newbies might not know, one has to gratte a little, get past the surface and be aware of those undercurrents,even rip tides, which are there and part of  rural french life.

 

To the OP this is obviously bothering you and it would bother me too. See the notaire who dealt with it all and for now, keep saying no, you can be pleasant about it, but say no.

[frexpt]

[quote user="idun"]

And the Mairie, it was our Mairie that had us and our neighbours over from day one.

 

[/quote]

I understand completely how you feel, but am not sure what you mean by the reference to the Mairie..........

[idun]

Re the Mairie.

When our little estate was built, it was a botched job. The Mairie came to us a couple of years after we had moved in and said that the road on your estate has not been 'constructed'  properly, and that it would cost £30.000 to put it right, this in 1985, so a lot of money then. We went through the paper work and the actual Maire who had sent us this letter requesting this money to do the works, had been to a little opening ceremony a couple of years before we had bought our land and he had signed off on the estate, that it was in good and proper order and then they had a 'pot', a celebratory drink too along with the people who 'made' the estate.

Incidentally, the company who had built the estate had not even finished the drainage, which they had to do later as it became a health hazard, without the DDASS they would not have and left us in the proverbial m e r d e!

We refused to get this done and remained a private estate and paid for our own street lighting and for renewal of part of our road.

Then 15 years later, an old building, owned by the Mairie at the end of our estate was sold.  The Mairie gave permission for flats to be built, in spite of very limited access to this building,  and the Mairie agreed that our estate should be treat as a thorough fare, even though it was a private estate.

None of us could afford to fight this, we did our best, but lost.

So I don't trust Maire's or Mairies and ours was no better or worse than any other I have heard of.

 

And if you are wondering why we bought on that estate. Well there was very little land for sale back then. Lots of parcels we saw had tracks leading to them and access was often poor. So much in rural France was rather shabby really, so our road didn't shock us, it looked in a rather better state than may we had seen and we were young then and probably naieve, or is that stupid.

[frexpt]

Yes, I've heard plenty of stories like yours, but thanks for taking the trouble to explain and for the other input

[andyh4]

I am very much with Idun on this - see the Notaire.

We bought a property knowingly with a disputed right of way.  What we did not know was that this was part of a family feud between the people claiming the right of way and the sellers.

By virtue of our purchase we became drawn into the issue.  We had already said that we had no objection to them walking along the track, but they continued the case demanding vehicular access and as things progressed it became clear about the feud (from the depositions made our advocat described it as Capulet vs Montague) and also that the objective of continuing the case was not so much the right of way as to say to the sellers, "see now you lot have gone, we've won."  They lost.

 

[frexpt]

Thanks to all for suggestions so far. I've written to the notaire today and I'll post something again as and when.......

[pachapapa]

If there is no acte authentique formalising the servitude ( access ) then there is no right of way.

[woolybanana]

Don' give an inch!

[blondie]

I agree. Its best , considering your concerns, to say no thankyou from the start. Our new neighbours are the given an inch take a mile variety. We have no access issues particularly but because we were easy going when they arrived they have parked their cars on our garden over the lane, attached their aerial and satelite dish to our hall chimney, damaging the roof. Connected to our water supply and had the use of our electricity for over a year now. They are paying per unit but it is the inconvenience and although the renovations are complete the reluctance to pay for their own connection. We have now given them 2 months to get it sorted or we pull the plug. This has soured relations and why I didnt want to really get involved in the first place, but when people say pretty please face to face it is so hard to say "No" most of the time. I tried but after much pleading gave in. Its virtually impossible to stop these things when they are started and has caused us much grief that we could have well done without and im sure its not over yet. So be firm and say "No " from the outset to keep your sanity . They will get over it and if they dont then their friendliness was just based on getting what they wanted from you and nothing more.

[Patf]

Our friends in the village have an almost identical situation to the OP, and HEZ above.

They have been there for 6 years, and up to now the neighbours have only used the right of way (?servitude) on foot.

But now they're building a new house at their end and the garage exit leads straight onto the servitude - way out to the road.

Our friends seem to have left it too late to object, and anyway don't want to fall out with the neighbours.

It seems to be a very common problem and you need to keep your wits about you from the start - or you've lost!

[idun]

Too true,  the trouble with the servitudes is they are often written vaguely and leave no lea way for opposing a vehicule using it rather than someone just walking along a path.

If ever I move back to France I would be very very cautious about anything like that. My friend spent thousands and thousands on her fight with her neighbour and my friend kept winning and her neighbour kept appealing.