Would getting married help inheritance position?

[woolybanana]

Perhaps a chat with a notaire would set your mind at rest as to what action to take. But this must be before you sign the acte.

Marriage for the sake of property is a good idea if it is only for property and not for other purposes because everyone knows where they stand!! Marriage for 'love' is generally a mistake.[6]

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="idun"]

Rabbie, since when can you disinherit your kids in France?

[/quote]I didn't say that. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Only in England of the countries I have lived in can you disinherit your children completely. ....

[/quote]

Actually, I think the way to prevent your children inheriting in France is to sell your house "en viager".  Can be quite amusing if the children come along to the funeral expecting to hear about a shareout.  [Www]

Angela

[Debra]

Is it legal to do that?  My neighbour's property was sold en viager but she told us that her and her husband could only do it because they had no children.  89 and going strong - to the chagrin of the bloke who bought the viager and thought she'd follow her husband fairly quickly when he died ten years ago.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Debra"][quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Debra"][quote user="Loiseau"]

You would be deemed to own half the house.

[/quote]Why? (As for the rest of the married scenario - the law changed after 2004 which was why the sticky was posted).

[/quote]

Hi,

     

If the house was in the deceased husband's sole name, and he left

children from a previous marriage , and he had not made a will or other

arrangement, the surviving wife is entitled to claim the house in

life-interest. 

      If the partners were not married the children would inherit the house outright.

       

[/quote]Are you saying that the quote from the sticky below is now incorrect because its changed again since 2004?

[quote user="Debra"]Here are some quotes from the sticky http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/641727/ShowPost.aspx in this section:[quote]Non-common children and descendants

The deceased person may leave

children not stemming from the marriage, for example a child from a

previous marriage, an illegitimate child, or a child adopted solely by

the deceased. The surviving spouse receives ownership of a quarter of

the estate calculated in accordance with new Article 758-5 of the Civil

Code. He/she no longer has the option of selecting total usufruct, which

may have disadvantages where the spouse is relatively young in relation

to the children of a previous marriage.[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]

Hi,

    Apologies , in the absence of a will or "donation entre époux" the above is correct.  I was assuming the adoption of the "donation entre époux" which is the answer in the presence of step-children.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Debra"]Is it legal to do that?  My neighbour's property was sold en viager but she told us that her and her husband could only do it because they had no children.  89 and going strong - to the chagrin of the bloke who bought the viager and thought she'd follow her husband fairly quickly when he died ten years ago.

[/quote]

Hi,

    See quote from site "Viager Europe";

                   www.viager-europe.com/viager-definition/

"On peut vendre en viager même en présence d’enfants : C’est souvent la

solution choisie par de nombreux Vendeurs, afin d’organiser de leur

vivant leur succession (ventilation de tout ou partie du bouquet par

exemple), évitant ainsi d’éventuels problèmes entre les ayants droits".

[Dart16]

IMHO....There are two ways to ensure a lifelong interest in a property...one better than the other!.

My situation is similar, except that my partner and I jointly and equally own the house, but this makes no difference to the OP's scenario. If she were to die first, her three children would each receive one quarter of her estate (ie one eighth of the house each), with the last quarter being distributed according to her will. If she dies intestate then I believe the surviving spouse inherits the remaining quarter i.e. Me! So in my scenario where she bequeaths the remaining quarter to her children, her three children would each own one sixth of the house) and under French law if two thirds of the owners of a property want to sell it they can force a sale, irrespective of the percentage of their ownership. As a surviving spouse I would retain the right to live in the property for one year, but after that, if the three children wanted their money they could force the sale of the house. However, it is complicated by the fact that at least one of them would still be under the age of consent, which would mean a judge would need to be appointed to look after the interests of the minor - I could not, effectively move house with the children as they would be awarded their money as soon as the house was sold so we would have to live in the house until the youngest reached 21 years of age. I also believe that, unless I persuaded two of the children to agree to it, I could not sell the property, an even if I did persuade two of them, if one was still underage the judge has to agree as well!

There are two ways around this, the first is to set up a business which 'owns' the house and in which both my partner and I hold one share each, upon one death, the share passes to the surviving partner, who then retains complete control over the property. This effectively dis-inherits her children and as such is liable to be challenged in law, with a good possibility of the children winning - such is the entrenchment of the Napoleonic succession laws. Also, this route is expensive to set up and has yearly running costs. The second work-around is as Parsnips says, we have to marry and then both have to make a will and set up a donation entre epoux which gifts the usafruct to the surviving partner. The children would then inherit their one sixth ownership (thus satisfying their succession rights). This will cost about 700Euro. Being PACS (which we are, but for a different reason) is no help in this matter, it only helps with the inheritance taxation position. (60% if not married/PAC'd or 0% if PAC'd.....ummmmmm.. let me see )

[idun]

I have no idea why anyone does a PACS, why did you? I cannot help but ask, as you have me curious about it.

 

Now I do know some people who did it, but that was not because they were going to live together, or even sleep together it was to get around one of them being posted to the other end of France. A friend helping another friend out.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Dart16"]IMHO..... The second work-around is as Parsnips says, we have to marry and then both have to make a will and set up a donation entre epoux which gifts the usafruct to the surviving partner. The children would then inherit their one sixth ownership (thus satisfying their succession rights). This will cost about 700Euro. Being PACS (which we are, but for a different reason) is no help in this matter, it only helps with the inheritance taxation position. (60% if not married/PAC'd or 0% if PAC'd.....ummmmmm.. let me see )[/quote]

The figure for the cost of making a will seems very high? Is that right?

[Dart16]

The cost of making the two wills was, IIRC around 100 euros, the remainder was for the donation entre epoux.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Dart16"]The cost of making the two wills was, IIRC around 100 euros, the remainder was for the donation entre epoux.[/quote]

Hi,

        The donation entre époux normally costs about 140€ per spouse.  I suspect that in this case a house may have been transferred into the communité, which leads to added costs.  That's why new arrivals in France are advised to sign their "donation" before signing the "acte de vente".

[Dart16]

In the case I quoted, the sums involved were quoted to me by a notaire during my investigations as to what would be the best way to proceed in the purchase, in joint names, of a main residence. No extra work involved I'm afraid. ..So not sure why there is an apparent disparity....