Mozman Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 If an immobilier has not obtained a signed viewing form can they charge the buyer for their fees?Also, I have been told that there is a time limit after any initial introduction that then absolves a buyer from fees and the buyer can approach the seller direct. In the Uk this is 6 months. I have been told it could be about 18 months in France. Does anyone know the rules?Regarding French agents in general. The fees are scandalous. In the UK we only pay 1%. Generally I find property is marketed better in the UK. I feel that French agents do not advertise where properties are, or make marketing leaflets freely available. This is to protect the sale for them and to get the fee. The level of fee they charge and the property taxes are clearly a cause of stagnation in the French property market.Sorry if any agents are reading this and becomming indignant, but this cartel has to change. In my view the UK system is better. The seller appoints and pays an agent. This ensures the agent works for the seller and not the buyer. All too often at the moment agents are too happy to suggest sellers will drop prices!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Not sure that you can compare the UK market with the French market so easily. A UK agent would probably sell 20 houses against the French agents 1. You have a choice - sell the house yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 When all else fails, read the instructions.You will have signed a Mandat de Vente with the agent. That specifies (legally) what happens at the end of the process. One I signed specifies that I am forbidden to deal directly with a buyer "having been presented by the agent or visited the site with him" for a period of twelve months following its expiry. Seems reasonable to me - I signed the contract voluntarily.As discussed on the forum previously, you need to be very careful that you give notice to your agent(s) in the specified written form via a registered letter with proof of receipt to the official address noted in the Mandat. Otherwise he is entitled to charge you his commission even if you or another agent found the buyer .The agency fees are usually negotiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozman Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 We signed a mandat sans exclusivite. We understand that this allows us to sell the house ourselves to anyone not introduced by the agent. The agent would get no fee in this case. If we sold to someone the agent introduced we would accept that the agent would want a fee within any prescribed timescales.Our interest centres around a house that we might want to buy that we saw 12 months ago with an agent. If the timescale after that first visit has elapsed it would be quite reasonable to deal with the seller direct. I see no point in paying agents fees for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 It's twelve months from the expiry of the Mandat, due notice having been given. The agent may well still pursue for his commission - whether the seller or you. There was a recent set of postings on this topic. Either way, it could get messy. I'm not saying don't do it - just watch your step! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Personally, I can effectivelly see no difference between the UK and French system when it comes to paying the agent.In both cases the buyer hands over a chunk of money to the solicitor / notaire. The solicitor / notaire then gives it to the sellers solicitor / notaire (or in the case of France it could be the same notaire) who then gives a chunk to the agent and a chunk to the seller.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-D de Rouffignac Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 If you wish to pay what you consider a "reasonable fee" you can use one of the many (I understand around 50) networks of low-cost estate agencies springing up in France and recruiting hundreds of commercial agents. I won't mention names for fear of libel but there was an item about them on French TV last Sunday night in the 'Capital' series on M6. Admitted their fees are low (they say) but from what I saw the downside includes:- people recruited with no prior experience in the property business and given an average 5 days training. - all work on commission only and pay their own expenses- one in three gives up within the first 12 months- advertising is purely on the Internet whereas recent research shows that 70% of potential (French) property buyers use local estate agencies as their primary point of contact.The programme showed a commercial agent on his first assignment to estimate and take on a sales mandate for a commercial building - he was completely out of his depth, with no ideea of what selling price to suggest to the vendors. The French estate agency business is rigorously controlled by French law (qualifications, licensing, spot checks etc) but the fundamental weakness is that a single agency with a valid licence can sub-licence any number (it seems at present) of 'agents commercials' with limited or no experience as noted above. I have worked inside a French agency with people of 10, 20 or more years experience (my own qualifications include a law degree), and am currently selling my property and buying another. I have placed it with two agencies and am happy to let them get on with the job of finding a buyer, and I am using another agency to find my replacement property in another town. I am happy to pay their commissions in both cases and enjoy the assurances and guarantees that that implies. P-D de R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Quote: (my own qualifications include a law degree)I have a similar law qualification which I obtained in order to qualify for studies to be a Barrister.I am at a loss to comprehend how it helps me to buy a house in france.[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozman Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 I beg to differ. It is the subtle difference of who is legally obliged to pay the agent. In England the agent is appointed by the seller and paid by the seller. In France the seller appoints the agent but the agent is paid by the buyer. I agree that it is all sorted in the round with the Notaire, but who pays the piper calls the tune. Legally the buyer is paying the agent so the agent is more likely to dance to his tune!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozman Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Quite right that one can sell the house without an agent and we are trying to do this. However, the main point is that people are paid for work, why should a French agent get 6 times what an English agent gets? In England agents do not drive potential buyers about, they just make appointments with vendors for the viewers. In France there is this need for agents to keep the whereabouts of properties secret so that potential buyers do not approach sellers direct and no fee is payable. Why not simply have a commission payable to the agent no matter who sells, but at a realistic level as in the UK? The poor marketing of property locations by agents does not help the sellers. Also buyers will often not proceed with enquires with agents as they will probably hope to buy a house without having to pay the agents fees.Moving house in France is an expensive business. If we choose to sell we will have to pay 6% agents fees for the new house and 7.5% Notaires. In the Uk this would be 1% for each on the value in question. These exhorbitant fees are stifling the market in France and will increasingly make it uneconomical to move.I do feel that if agents fees were more in line with the work that they do and in line with reality more properties might be sold, and the agents would gain more individual fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evianers Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 This is why the old adage "comparisons are odious" comes to mind reading this posting. Swings and roudabouts. Availability of housing in LBF is probably although not always more desirable than that in the UK. By this mean that the day after tomorrow, our children are about to move into a 1930s detached house [extended] in an outer surburb of London which cost a jaw-dropping sum. For that price hereabouts one could buy a chateau!If you do not wish to pay the 6% agent's commission, business being very difficult for them nowadays, we suggest you do what we did and state unequivocally that you are not willing to pay 6% and how about 4%? You would be surprised how many of them are willing to bend the so-called rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Mozman they probably sell ten times the houses in the UK. As was said negociate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Our French agents wanted 10%.We sold privately in the end - not to the man who looked in the estate agent's window and then used Google Earth to deduce which street we lived on and then cold-called us!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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