Deimos Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I’m looking to plant about 0.7Ha with trees. Its overgrown at the moment, wet (millstream runs alongside and fields can flood for a few weeks in winter). River valley (flat valley and I’m told soilis fairly fertile). Reason for treesinclude: “I like trees”, looking for firewood in longer term, may help keep theweeds down (in the longer term), etc.I have no intention of planting them evenly spaced instraight lines (I hate that), but will be a bit more random. I’ve been told they should be 8m apart (thoughthe person did not say what species).Does anybody have any suggestions about what sorts ofspecies would be best to plant.Many thanksIan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Ian, I'd plant a particular area for firewood, and they definately don't need to be anything like 8 metres apart. I would get Oak for that purpose, because it is easily the best to burn Ash seems to grow in, just about every sort of condition but i'll come back tomorrow with some more ideas. A mixed woodland is a lovely thing to plant for pleasure (and mini beasties) now, but also for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 My only thought about Oak is that it is very slow growingand in a “pseudo-forest” might be “out-completed” by faster growing trees. However, I’m no expert (hence asking for suggestions). The few small Oaks I have elsewhere (about15 ft high) seem to be taking a rest from growing for the last two years. I don’t need the firewood for quite a fewyears (I’ve quite a few trees in other fields) so don’t need everything to growas the rate of knots (also I guess has to be good for chimneys and thus not conifers). Also I guess that cutting trees down tendsto damage neighbouring trees (and its only 0.7 Ha).You did raise another reason I want trees and that is forwildlife. So far I’ve deliberately notcut it back as it is full of wildlife (walk across it and all sorts of thingsfly out). I appreciate that theplanting process will destroy that habitat for a bit but it will hopefullyrecover, all be it in a different form.It is quite wet (mostly at the same level as the river).Many thanksIan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Try eucalyptus. They like damp land and are very pretty - a sort ofbluey green and I think, don't lose their leaves in the winter. Just afew scattered here and there. Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hi Ian Re the distance - sorry I was very vague - I was thinking of you planting an area for coppicing, for the nearer future, but if you want it all natural with the intention of cutting for fire-wood much later you are probably right about the distance. There are some other woods that are not good for open fires, Chestnut, for example, as it spits like crazy, but it is such a wonderful tree. Quercus rubra is a faster growing oak, and a lovely tree. Aulne (alder) handles water well too, and just about every Saule (willow).How many trees are you thinking of buying, what size, and when will you be starting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 I’m not sure about the size. The tree guy is coming round this Sat/Sun and was saying I shouldbudget 8€ per tree. He said I couldspend more and get bigger trees or less and smaller. Unsure what species this is as going into too much detail over thephone is difficult. Its about 0.7 Ha,so at 8m. between trees this must be around 70 trees (plus a few extra forother fields - I had to edit this to get the maths right [:$]). It was the tree guy whosaid 8m (I have no idea about these things).I’m hoping to plant them a.s.a.p. so they have the rest ofthe winter to settle in and can start growing this spring. I believe it would have been better to planta bit earlier (autumn) but then I thought I’d leave it a year – now changed mymind as I’d prefer them to all have an extra year growing.I’ve another field that is wild but has quite a few trees(mainly ash) that I can use for fire wood for the next few years and I’mthinking (maybe daft) that if I spread seeds as I cut then they shouldestablish a balance (new growth = “harvested” each year).I like the sound of a fast growing Oak so will definitely askhim. I’m keen to avoid all the samespecies and definitely to avoid these straight grids that seem so popular(around me anyway).I've been out starting to cut it back today and its very soft soil (probably from years of vegitation rotting down, etc.).Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james419 Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 If you are looking for something quick to grow easy to plant and drinks alot try willows and poplars - we bought some from http://www.bowhayestrees.co.uk/ they arrived as 90cm sticks which you just stick into the ground all of the 55 that we bought are showing buds - John at bowhayes is very helpful - we also bought a further 60odd hedging plants with bare roots and they are also doing very well,If I can be of any further help please pm meJames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 In England I found that after 5 years, trees (of the same variety) bought small will be roughly the same size as trees bought tall. Here we had to buy some biggish trees (12 -15ft) because we just had an empty field. Tree men planted them, with machines.We also planted hundreds of bare rooted 'whips', and a few medium pot grown ones up to 8ft high, we put all those in ourselves. The little 2ft high whips are romping off whereas the growth in the bigger, and medium size trees is less noticeable.If you are planting now, they really should be pot grown - which adds to the expense too. It's just a much better start for them in Autumn, the ground is still warm, and they can get their roots down easily. Still, it does sound like pretty good planting conditions; I wish I had what you have.The trees will scatter their own seeds for you! Sycamore trees, the scourge of suburban gardeners because of their potential enormous size and errm fertility, would be good. Amelanchiers are lovely trees (but relatively small) that are fine in wet conditions. Also all varieties of Poplar (peuplier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Deimos,How did you find your tree man ? We are moving to the Gers this year and so far my research for trees has been a little pathetic, local pepineries (sp) only. They have stock, but pretty limited and quite pricey, although much cheaper than their equivalent in the UK. What size/type of tree are you getting for 8 euros ? I have a "field" of about the same size as yours, and would like to do what you are doing. However I am not looking for firewood, but would like fast growers, but not conifers.Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 I think I need something that will stand more than 1m highimmediately. The field has beenovergrown for quite some time and although I’m cutting it now it will re-growquickly and need cutting again (reed type grasses) – so I need something that Ican see clearly so I don’t cut them down first time round.The field is actually on the other side of the road from thehouse and is also to the north. Thus, I’mnot going to use it for anything else, plus the trees will not shade/darken thehouse. I hoping that over time thefield will return to grasses rather than weeds (a lot of stinging nettles) –but I guess I will have to keep cutting it for some time to come to get there.Sycamore sounds a great idea. I’ve actually got some seeds I collected last year so I mayscatter those as well.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrot Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Eucalyptus is an excellent idea (look for other than the Gunii variety which is what is mostly sold). If the place is windy, top them after a couple of years. Salix Alba if it really is reliably wet.Don't want to be depressing (on my first posting) but you may be under-estimating the work involved. Digging the necessary holes is a big task. Worse still is fitting protection against deer. Although there are alternatives, a proper wire enclosure for each tree is probably the best long-term solution. To cap it all, watering 70 trees in a hot summer can eat into your time. Count on five years! AK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 [quote user="AK"] To cap it all, watering 70 trees in a hot summer can eat into your time. Count on five years! AK [/quote]Which is another reason why it's so much better to plant in Autumn, and as AK said, it's a lot of work. It could take you till autumn to clear the ground around the holes, and to dig the blinking things!Too late now for bare rooted, but we have bought hundreds of metre high trees (we had some that were 2 metres high)from these guys, and they have rootballed trees too, for if you are going to buy and plant now. the difference in price is phenomenal (another good reason....) You can down load the catalogue or they will send you one. Dozens of different trees and hedging plants. All in French, but its good practice!http://www.pepinieres-moissenot.frIn the catalogue you'll see Racine Neue (RN) are the bare rooted ones. These become available only when all the leaves have fallen in AutumnEn Motte - Root Ball EDIT: I've jus had a look at the site. the hand held version of the catalogue is much easier to follow, and it has a planting guide (ideal soil types etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Don't know what they are like for firewood but eucalyptus certainly grow like stink - anywhere! - so they are great for instant growth.May not be a good choice though if you want to support local wildlife. Although it has attractive bark and a bluish leaf, our eucalyptus seems quite sterile, compared with indigenous trees in the garden. Also seem to be forever pruning (i.e. cutting huge boughs out of) the damn thing, mainly to keep the neighbours happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 [quote user="Tresco"]It could take you till autumn to clear the ground around the holes, and to dig the blinking things![/quote]Not clearing round the holes – clearing the entire field (andafter 6 hrs strimming today, yes it is hard work, with quite a bit more stillto do less than half done).Catalogue looks useful. I’ll see what tree man gives as prices this weekend.Many thanksIan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I have been trying to get a picture in my head of what it is exactly that you already have and what it has been historically. It really sounds as though you have a winter flooding meadow and as such any tree planting needs to be carefully considered with regard to the existing Eco structure and the species present. Most of the trees that others have mentioned I would consider to be "wrong", sorry.NOT. oak, eucalyptus, poplar, chestnut, sycamore or any other "forest" or non native species.Any tree planting should be set back at least 18 metres from the natural waterside and I would suggest medium height trees. A few possibles would be hazel, willows, including goat willow, ash, alder, common or wild pear. Personally I would include a smallish contained area of blackthorn and common hawthorn.The 18 metres is to conserve the existing species, particularly dragonflies and other creatures which use the margins. Obviously I am not coming at this from an aesthetic or commercial perspective, although I think the result would be rewarding for you and I suspect it would provide you with a lot of interest and future enjoyment. Other than the famous Ragondin, what else lives in and around your water courses?Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Some time ago the area was grass (i.e. grazing forcows). I know this because throughvarious previous owners I have been left an old black and whit photo of the field (and mill). I think it has had horses on it within thelast 16 years. However, it has thenbeen left and has become overgrown. Main plant life is reedy grass (maybe not “grass” but the long breadleaved plants common on wetland – grows to a height of a bit less than a meter. Stinging nettles are gradually moving intothe field from the outside edges. Lastyear there was a vast amount of bind-weed at one end.The “river” is actually a dig-out mill stream, the trueriver is a couple of hundred meters away (across another “grazing” field.It is about 0.7 Ha and I also have a slightly larger fieldjust the other side of the mill stream. This is also overgrown but has much better “habitat – in that there areareas of trees (fairly reasonable sized ones), some open grass, some 2+m highgrasses (wetland type of stuff), another bypass stream running through it, somebrambles along on edge, etc. I thinkthat this area is probably better for wildlife and it has better cover and is abit more diverse. Margins of the fieldin question over the last year were mostly stinging nettles.In the 3 winters I have owned the place the field hasflooded only once for less than a week, but is is still quite wet. Given that the river runs down a flat’ishvalley, the mill stream deviation thus has raised banks (i.e. to keep the waterhigher so it can “fall over” the mill. Thus much of the field and neighbouring fields are below the mill streamlevel but above the river level.There are already a few “self-set” ash trees between 1 and2m high. The mill stream banks have quite a few "self-set" trees right on the back where the trunks curve out over the river then run vertical (a bit like a J).In terms of existing wildlife, not completely sure. Walk across the field in spring andpheasant, partridge, etc. will fly out. Things like foxes. There arequite a few well worn paths across the ditch to the next field (i.e. where thegrasses have been kept low by use and it must be at least 70m from thewater). To be honest I’ve pretty wellignored it since moving here as I’ve had too much else to do. I guess it was the excessive bindweed thatmade me thing that if I just kept ignoring it it will just get worse and worse.I’m not unduly concerned about “commercial” aspects. In the longer term I will probably harvestsome of the trees for firewood in the house but that is far from the onlyreason. Its more to turn in back intosomething that is not just being taken over by weeds (weeds in what I think of thenegative sense; such as nettles).Many thanks for suggested trees types. There are several decent established treesround the ditch round the field so I will check what they are as well (as their“spacing” suggests “self-set’s left to grow).Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianpmills Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 If your ground is wet then this overwhelmingly determines your choice of planting. Take a look at other wet areas and see what does well. Alder and willow are particularly suitable. Without wishing to be rude to other contributors, a lot of the suggestions just wouldn't work in wet/boggy conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisc Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 willows love wet ground-they are handy for building fencing etcyou can even grow a 'live' fencejust push stripped 'whips' into the ground.then prune as neededwax creative like thiswarning they are wide- shallow rooted so tend to blow over easily-not for windy locationsyup salix is my choice with a couple of silver birch for fast pretty growth mixed in- plant birch in triangle of 3good luck chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 Result: Once I hadmanaged to get across that I really did not want one of these plantations thatI see around here (quite a few around, small areas with trees all in straightlines, where after 20 years the trees are sold for wood e.g. pallets, wood no goodfor on a fire and very bleak – he called the “poplier” or something likethat). He was really insistent that Ishould make one of these plantations as in 20 years time I could sell the woodfor money !!Anyway, eventually got through, random and variety ofspecies and he suggested Ash (Fraxinus Excelcior), Alder (Alnus, unsure ofspecies), Hornbeam (Carpinus genus, unsure of which species) and Oak (QuercusRobus – “Il préfère les sols frais et les ambiances humides” et “Croissance Rapide“) . He was cautions about the Oak and said that only certain parts ofthe field should have Oak (as its getting cleared it is easier to see someparts are higher than others and there are a couple of existing decent sizedOaks on the field boundary). Many thanks for suggestions and help (further comments on selection obviously welcome)Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Peuplier is Poplar, it's a nightmare in France, planted all over the place in wetlands and along river banks where it is particularly harmful. Don't let him talk you into it.I like the idea of hornbeam, still not happy with the oak.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylisbide Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Hi - take care with willow as its roots go a long way and are regularly responsible for undermining property - Has anyone suggested flowering cherries? They are so pretty in spring and there are many varieties - also the fruiting cherries which would give you two bites of the cherry.....mixed wood would look nice if you are against regimented rows - but do include something which flowers cos you and others will appreciate. phylis bide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 26, 2006 Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 [quoteuser="Chrisc"]willows love wet ground-they are handy for building fencing etcyou can even grow a 'live' fencejust push stripped 'whips' into the ground.chris[/quote] I have several willows already so am very interested inthis. I have “weeping willows”. Do you just take the yellowy long (andflexible) bits and just plonk them in the ground (tied to a post to keep themvertical). A few questions:Can you just cut the “whips” and if so to what length isbest ?How far does one push them into the ground ?Any time of year to do (or not to do) this ?What should one see growing and after how long (i.e. to tellif it’s “taken” or try again) ?Any other advice to “make it work (better) ? Any thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Done it. Ordered my“self assembly” forest (sort of flat pack or something – to be delivered inboxes ?)Gone for Ash (approx 40%), Oak (Robur species – quick’ishgrowing, approx 18 %), Alder (approx 25%), Hornbeam (approx 18%).Going for between 6 and 8 m between trees (degree ofvariability). Next and following yearsI have some more areas to do the same with so will be able to “top-up” withreplacements and different species as appropriate.Many thanks for all the advice.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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