Bringing back the Carte de Séjour?

[NormanH]

I think each Préfecture puts out their own, but some put them on line

They are all more or less like this:

http://www.maine-et-loire.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Europeens_-_sejour_permanent.pdf

[Hereford]

Thanks Norman.  I found all the info on the Manche website but no form!

[powerdesal]

Norman wrote:- '' Even after Brexit I can show that I have resided in France as a European ( as was) for five years covered by a carte de résident..''

Why the ''as was'' comment?

You will still be a European whether Britain is a member of the EU or not, as will all other Brits.

Europe is a geographical entity, the EU is a political construct.

[Cathar Tours]

You may find that the CDS may become invalid as the EU moves to a more centralised and common "residency visa/permit".

Perhaps the bit that may be of more interest can be found at the EU Immigration Portal.

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/what-does-the-eu-do/already-in-the-eu_en#longterm

For France.

http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/what-do-i-need-before-leaving/france_en

The implication of what it displays is that you need to have a job to become resident in France unless you have family already here.

[Sprogster]

NickP, a significant percentage if not majority of retirees have some form of chronic health condition that would make comprehensive private medical insurance difficult and expensive to obtain, without which a non EU/EAA citizen would be unable to obtain a long stay visa.

As for being financially challenged, unfortunately there is a long history of Brits moving to France and Spain with insufficient funds and or unrealistic work expectations. Hence one of the reasons for the high return rate.

[Sprogster]

Another consideration will be the political environment in France post Brexit, as in the French elections next May it looks inevitable that France will end up with a right of centre government more hostile to outsiders.

If I recall correctly it was Nicholas Sarkosy who tried to restrict access to health care for foreign 'inactifs' and presumably post Brexit inactive Brits in France not eligible for an S1 will have less rights to challenge this sort of restriction.

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="Sprogster"]If I recall correctly it was Nicholas Sarkosy who tried to restrict access to health care for foreign 'inactifs' and presumably post Brexit inactive Brits in France not eligible for an S1 will have less rights to challenge this sort of restriction.[/quote]

You are right but it was more to do with EU legislation and many other countries already had it in place or were introducing it. In France, if my dad's memory is correct, many inactive Brits had been paying into the system for their healthcare and it was those that all the fuss was about.

[EuroTrash]

CT, the rights of pensioners are covered here

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/pensioners/index_en.htm

And this seems to nicely clarify the earlier point about the carte de séjour

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

[NormanH]

Yes it says that

"You can then apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your rights to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions."

"The permanent residence document can be handy when dealing with the

authorities or for administrative formalities. The authorities may no

longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources,

health insurance, and so on."

The document should be valid for 10 years and is automatically renewable without any condition or requirement.

Which is what I have done.

My guess is that would remain valid for the peesent  holder after Brexit, but perhaps there will no longer be the possibility for new people to take it up..

[Cathar Tours]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]CT, the rights of pensioners are covered here

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/pensioners/index_en.htm

And this seems to nicely clarify the earlier point about the carte de séjour

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm[/quote]

Is that not how it is now but what happens after the UK completes it's exit? If what we have read over the months in various newspapers is correct we will be treated as non EU citizens and then it is a different ball game and what was before is irrelevant as would be your links as they are for existing EU nationals simply moving to another EU country.

[woolybanana]

The problem with this discussion is that it is entirely speculation and therefore cannot be satisfying. Given that UK has not yet triggered article 50 and that Van Rumpoy is saying that negotiations are not likely to start for a year, we are quite a way down the road from knowing where we are. Some are even saying it will take 15 years to Brexit!

What is likely to happen is that the easier points will be dealt with first and I would have thought that sorting out reciprocal rights of residence and conditions would be amongst one of the first as it is probably relatively easy to sort.

My guess is that, for those of us who are already here and integrated into the system, nothing much will change, beyond perhaps having to get some extra tiresome bit of paper.

Remember though that Brexit negotioations will be taking place when there is a new French president in place, and Mutti may or may not still be in power as she has an election too.

What I find more worrying overall in that the EU seems to be appointing as negotiating leaders the most fanatical federalist it can find, Van Hofstadt, Barnier and, or course, Junker. who are desperate to hold onto their vision of a centralized and not particularly democratic Europe.

Britain should not be prepared to cooperate with these people and work through the Council of Europe directly as she is likely to get a more balanced deal there.

Time that Mrs. May showed a few claws I think.

[EuroTrash]

Reading what it says, and trying to avoid any speculation, I think it is saying that if you have lived here for 5 years minimum as an EU citizen, that in itself gives you the rights of permanent residents. So what matters is being able to prove 5 years residence as an EU citizen. It doesn't matter whether you have the residence document or not and it doesn't matter whether or not you are still an EU citizen, once you've met those criteria then they stay met (unless you spend 2 years out of France or break one of the other rules, I think that's what it said or am I getting mixed up).

If that's the correct intepretation, then speculation over negotiations will only potentially affect people who haven't already met the 5-year rule.

[woolybanana]

Presumably, then, paying tax here and having some sort of residence, whether rented or owned, would be sufficient to prove this.

[NormanH]

That is what I was getting at, but having  the Carte de Séjour already  could help, since (certainly in my case anyway) getting it involved all the sort of paperwork needed for obtaining Nationality, even if for the moment it has become much simpler.

In other words if new paperwork is put in place, I reckon having already done all the groundwork would be a step forward.

I hope that all the speculation about EU national or not is a red herring.

A person who has obtained  the right to residence remains the same person.

I haven't seen any texts that suggest that acquired residence rights would be lost..

[NormanH]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Presumably, then, paying tax here and having some sort of residence, whether rented or owned, would be sufficient to prove this.[/quote]

I used various bills that showed I was actually present (phone end electricity with monthly totals) and my Ameli statements that show the various and frequent trips I made to the Doctor.

5 years Avis d'imposition are needed in any case.

.

[EuroTrash]

Hope the Ameli statements aren't a requirement - I haven't needed to see a doctor once in the last 5 years! (touch wood!)

Avis d'imposition seem to be what they always ask for to prove anything to do with residence. I guess bank statements would also show conclusively where you've spent your time.

[NormanH]

Those were just in my case...

If you looked at the link I gave to Hereford above one of the sections says:

Justificatif de la continuité de résidence : tout document prouvant le séjour continu tels que quittances de

loyers, factures, certificats médicaux, formations, attestations d'emploi sur les 5 dernières années.

In essence you need to show that you were actually continuously  present, not just the owner of a property, hence such things as telephone or electricity bills that show evidence of life...

[EuroTrash]

I "live" here but I can't prove I'm at home all the time because I'm not. In an average year I'm at my house for around 6 months out of 12 and the rest of the time I'm away, on interpreting assignments or inhouse projects, on average say about 3 months in other parts of France, 2+ months in the UK and a few weeks somewhere random like the Netherlands. I don't own any other property and I declare all my income in France. Do you think this would be an issue?

[NormanH]

I don't think so especially if you have contracts or salary slips etc to show...

They are much stiffer about this when you apply for Nationality, but when I re-newed my card the very helpful lady accepted my word 'sur l'honneur' that I had been continually here with no breaks and I didn't even have to produce all the documents I had got together

[EuroTrash]

Ta Norman.

It's all self employment so no payslips, but obviously I have hotel receipts, travel tickets when I use public transport - and it's easy enough to track exactly where I've been from my bank statement, by seeing where I withdrew cash and bought things.

[Cathar Tours]

I don't pay tax in France but my father has told me that basically it is the same sort of stuff you have to send copies of each year to CPAM. Copies of your tax form, CPAM certificate, Carte Vital(s), passport(s), and a bill (EDF, Orange/FT that sort of thing).

You would like to think that anything "official" would require the same documents although France being France there is no guarantee.

My father did apply for a CDS some years ago and was told he couldn't have one because he was English (and therefore didn't require one as the UK was part of the EU). That was the attitude of his prefecture but he was led to believe that if he asked for one and had all the documents he was entitled to one. He said this was common in France, one prefecture interpreted the rules different to another.

[NormanH]

By the way, on the Titre de séjour it states that it is for EU citizens, but also for Swiss and members of an EEA country.

It probably won't matter since it looks as if the UK won't join the EEA, but if it did British citizens would continue to be covered.