Room facilities

[mascamps.com]

Any thoughts on what "facilities" should be in a room these days?

Presumably we can take it as read that all rooms will have a bed, sheets, blanket/duvet/etc., but what about a reading light, clock/radion, TV, DVD, etc.? Towels, soap, shampoo too, but what about a bottle of water, biscuits, etc.?

Those cheapo DVD players originally prompted the question but then we sat down and thought about what "should" be in the rooms.

My list of possible things (probably not comprehensive), in broadly order of price runs to:

- brochures on local attractions;

- glasses; (or plastic cups?)

- reading light(s);

- clock/radio;

- guidebook on the region;

- hairdryer;

- kettle (plus hospitality tray);

- wireless internet;

- CD;

- TV;

- DVD;

- home cinema (I think this is a bit over the top, but is it?);

- internet PC (also over the top for an individual room I think, but what about offering it in a common room?)

And for "consumables":

- soap/shampoos;

- toilietry things like a comb, etc.;

- toothpaste;

- bottle(s) of water;

- biscuits/tea/coffee (to go with the hospitality tray).

 

Any other things that we should consider? Is there a line to be drawn, and, if so, where?

 

 

Arnold

 

[Wilko]

We have safes in all bedrooms,Metro sells them for around 32 euros.

Mrs Wilko

[Tresco]

Some views as a consumer.

If you are going to provide a DVD then you'll need to supply some films for guests to choose from. Perhaps print out a list of titles, brief description of genre etc.

I much prefer glass tumblers to plastic.

Kettle - travel size

CD, not sure about this, I reckon most people will take something with them on holiday, perhaps a walkman available to borrow? (again with discs to borrow). You could get some guests blaring music otherwise.

Toiletries, most people take their preferred brands with them, but not everyone, and I always appreciate provision of a small kit including soap and shampoo.

Toothpaste, and other items, easily forgotten or needed in 'emergency' shaving gear, ST's and tampons, combs etc,   perhaps you could have some supplies in and make it clear to guests in your written material/welcome pack that these are available. What do others think about this. I suppose I am concerned that your costs will rocket if all these are provided as a matter of course. I tend to take anything like toiletries with me when I leave -is that awful?

Internet access, your common room idea sounds good, it would probablyswing it for me

tresco

 

 

[Miki]

 

- brochures on local attractions; These we keep in the lounge for people to look through, it saves clutter in the room

- glasses; (or plastic cups?) Yes but be careful with the size of glass and here it will be kept, we had one left on a shelf, which fell and cracked the sink !

- reading light(s);Absolutely and with G de Fr, obligatory

- clock/radio;With us a clock only, the last thing we want is someone turning it up the radio and upsetting other guests.

- guidebook on the region; Again in the lounge

- hairdryer; Yes, we always have put these in the rooms, only one stolen over the years !

- kettle (plus hospitality tray);We don't and it is not that expected by the French, too many spilt coffes and teas over the years for us to go back down that track !

- wireless internet; Flipping hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- CD; Nope

- TV; Nope, have a lounge for that purpose

- DVD;Nope again

- home cinema (I think this is a bit over the top, but is it?); Just a little bit

- internet PC (also over the top for an individual room I think, but what about offering it in a common room?) If you are on 24/7 and it is not your personal computer, then I guess it might be useful to people who can't holiday without those facilities !

And for "consumables":

- soap/shampoos; Yes but the decision is split on this though, most people who B&B bring their own but we always keep a healthy supply of shower caps, gels and soaps etc in stock.

- toilietry things like a comb, etc.; No, it's not really a healthy thing to do

- toothpaste; Have you seen how mnay toothpastes there these days in the shops ? You would be bound to buy the wrong one for someone !

- bottle(s) of water; But you sell water in your bar ?

- biscuits/tea/coffee (to go with the hospitality tray). Your choice, we don't but we sell it a much lower price than the towns and give chocolates and or biscuits with it as well

Bedside tables for each person are a good idea.

A good supply of cold drinks in a chiller cabinet

Always ensure you have good quality matresses on each bed

Probably a few more things but at the moment I can't think of any and the boss is out, so....

 

 

 

[Dick Smith]

We did B&B a lot before we bought our place (and no, I'm not ashamed of that) and I think what Miki suggests is exactly what we wanted and usually got. We used to take a travel kettle and teabags for French places.

We never wanted to use our room as an office! And surely if people want Walkmans etc they will bring them with them?

A bottle of water was always appreciated, but we tended to stop in places without bars...

[mascamps.com]

Thought about this some more this afternoon.

Brochures: we used to leave them in the lounge but found that they "walked" into rooms. Also, we started off with a guide to the theme of each room and extended that by adding our regional guide to that and then the brochures.

Don't like the idea of glass "glasses". Too much scope for breakages and potential for lawsuits (says he, incredibly pessimistically).

Miki: re the guidebooks, do you keep the likes of Lonely Planet/Petit Futé/etc. in the lounge?

Kettle: we have toyed with the idea of kettles in our "english" rooms because the French, as you say, don't expect them. However, we suspect that we'd get very confused if we had assigned "english", "french", etc. rooms, net effect of which is that we bought one kettle for a trial and figure that one more would do the biz for us.

Wireless internet... well, I have it for me, so I list it as being available. In practice, two foot thick walls and wireless internet don't mix very well so, whilst available, it isn't available throughout the building. Dead cheap to install and much handier than cables everywhere.

TV/DVD: I gotta stop looking at the offers in Carrefour/Leclerc (69€ for the TV, 39€ for DVD). We have TV in the lounge but the competition on some of the sites that I'm listed on take TV in the room as read so we've got in three rooms right now and have three more tellys in boxes to go out, soonish.

Forgot about satellite TV earlier. We had a count up this afternoon of that vs DVDs. For us the satellite installation would be something around the 150€ per room mark vs 40€ per room for the DVD so we'll likely go for the DVD option in the short term.

I really have to stop looking at offers in the shops... home cinema is about 99€. Somewhat over the top for us at the moment though.

Internet: we currently make it available on request via an old portable. We don't get a big demand for it but have had journalists staying who needed it and also a number of backpackers who needed it to book their next place. With the wireless network in place, it's a doddle to do.

Soap/shampoo: we have them, but find that a lot are left behind unused.

Toothpaste/toiletries: I was thinking of one of those little hotel style toiletry bags with something like toothpaste, comb, razor and the like in it. They're about 2/3€ each so perhaps the way to go is to buy a few dozen to hand out as and when requested as otherwise it would mean a 2/3€ increase in the room price which I don't really want to do yet.

Bottled water: we have had very good feedback from guests about leaving a little bottle per person in each room. I think it's a very worthwhile thing to do in summer though requires a surprisingly large number of trips to the supermarket to pick the stuff up when you get more than a couple of people in. In principle, we sell water but in practice nobody has ever bought it so far as I can remember.

Biscuits/tea/coffee: hadn't thought of selling the bikkies. We sort-of don't like rolling out the kettles to the rooms as up to now we've made a couple of euro a cup but on the other hand a lot of non-French expect to have the kettle in the room.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

I like the idea of safes in the rooms and have even bought one as a trial but haven't gotten around to installing it yet. Actually, I'd forgotten about it: must add it to the "to do" list!

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

Re the DVD option, has anybody gone down that route yet?

If so, how do you handle movie rentals? I would have thought that although it would be simpler to just nip out and buy a dozen or two (perhaps 200€ odd these days) you'd need to keep buying to keep your list current and that's aside from the legal issue of the rentals. Plan B would be to rent as required from a local rental place but is that OK either as you're taking responsibility for the DVDs when you're not really in charge of them.

 

Arnold

 

[Cerise]

I am a bit amazed by these replies.  Are you lot B & Bs or  hotels?  Our house is also our home and I don't have TVs DVDs etc in our bedrooms?  Yes, it is very comfortable and I take things like reading lights for granted - we do also have kettles as many people like early morning tea or coffee (even the French I find), but I think our clientele are looking for a relaxed homely experience, not hi-tech corporate hospitality.  We have a DVD player and video in the lounge and there is a shop in the village which rents DVDs if anyone should require it, plus many people bring a couple of videos for their kids.  Maybe I am wrong, but I am not trying to compete with chain hotels. 

We have a separate fridge for guests which is in our downstairs hallway and we keep a large supply of water there.  I put a bottle in room before arrival and thereafter people help themselves.  We haven't found that people abuse this facility.  We have plenty of books and keep guidebooks, maps etc in a bookcase in the hall so that anyone may borrow them.  Again, maybe we are lucky but not only have we not lost any, but one or two guests have added to the collection. 

I suppose safes are an idea, but the guests have keys for their bedrooms and the house, as I said before, is our home so our own rooms are not locked.  We only have four rooms so it's not too hard to know who is supposed to be here.

We live in our B & B ourselves and try to treat our paying guests as we would our friends.  I realise this may not work for everybody - but on the whole it does for us.  The day my home turns into an identikit hotel, I quit!

Maggi

www.les-cerisiers.net

 

[Coco]

I'm with you Maggi.  DVDs?  YOu've got to be kidding - you'd NEVER get people out of the house on a rainy day!!!!

We have bedside tables and lamps, adequate storage, a chair and a small table in each room.  I also provide a small kettle and tea/coffee etc (kettles bought on Champion points) and I've now added a hairdryer to each room as I was asked for one so many times (again, bought with Champion points to keep cost down).  I tend to put a little dish of mints by the bed as well (goes down a bomb wth kids!)  And I did splash out on alarm clocks for each room (from the Champion 1€ fayre before Christmas!) because I was so fed up with it being so quiet here that just about everyone was turning up at least half an hour later than they had requested breakfast because they didn't wake up.

As you say, we're not running corporate hotels.  And as a point in fact of that, tonight we have a single Frenchman staying who has business in Saint Lo tomorrow but said that he would rather stay in a family-run B&B than an Ibis or Campanile etc.  Now if anyone is likely to want DVDs, PCs, faxes etc surely it should be a businessman, travelling alone.  Another couple from Brussels stayed with us last May and then brought their boys back with them in October.  They were most disappointed to see that by then we had a TV in the lounge because they had specifically brought their boys away for a quiet weekend in the country doing things as a family and wanted to "escape" normal town life, especially the TV!  So I just told the the boys we only had French TV

[Miki]

Maggi,

There are many kinds of B&B's. In the UK, we, like many others I'm sure, have stayed in many B&B's that have shamed local hotels with their extra facilities. In France we have seen from one epis to 4 epis Chateau and there can be little or indeed, a huge difference. What suits you or I, cannot be expected to suit all but you will find it is only Arnold that is after possibly giving a little more. If you read what Arnold says, you will see he is indeed an auberge not a B&B, in the sense that he has more than 5-6 bedrooms.

Whose other answers did you find surprising ?

So his clientele might expect a little more but it most certianly would not be expected to be quite what he has spoken of. Some of the things he wants to know if others use, would not improve his ratings but as he is fresh in the game, so to speak, he is finding his feet, just like we all had to.

My feelings are, that dear Arnold will probably laugh at some of his thoughts later on but knowing how some French like the little add ons, well just maybe, it might be right for his kind of business but as you say, it is not what the normal B&B would be looking to do.

 

[mascamps.com]

I know what you mean about the creeping towards the hotel facilities end of the market but these kind of things are more and more expected.

It was brought on when I tried to list on a Canadian website for B&Bs. We actually found it impossible to list without having some "technology" in the room. At the time, we took the easy way out which was to put a clock/radio in each room but that started us looking at the list of stuff that they had. You're talking everything from our humble clock radios right up to widescreen TV and home cinema. That's just for the B&B side of their site too: the list for their self-catering side is worse!

We actually installed wireless internet for ourselves but we find that there are quite a number of people who need internet access. As it happens, most of those have been normal tourists rather than business people. We found that a lot of people need it to book the next place that they're going to (we think that's a side effect of the nature of one specific place we're listed with). We've not had a massive demand for it as yet but a number of people really did need the access so it's there, courtesy of a very old computer.

We're basically looking at the DVD option as it's now affordable. We've had ordinary French TV in the lounge for ages and find that, for the most part, it's the French that really look for the TV. Not because it's in French (we get Spanish TV too) but just that they seem to like their TV, or at least the ones that stay with us do. The wind round us has caused us all kinds of problems with the satellite (just for us at the moment) and the normal aerial, hence our interest in something that isn't affected by the wind.

We are quite wary of going too far down the American/Canadian route if only because our rooms aren't nearly big enough for half the stuff that some of their B&Bs have in the rooms. Realistically, I think that we would need to knock at least two rooms into one to fit in a sensible mix.

As it happens, to date the best single thing we've done is nothing technological at all but rather it was putting a bottle of mineral water to the rooms (I like the idea of some in a fridge in the corridor). Although it costs us next to nothing, we have had very, very good feedback for it.

As Miki says, we're finding our feet in this game. One thing that really did surprise me is the variation in the range of things that people do supply in the rooms. We started off with essentially just the ensuite rooms and were a bit taken aback when we couldn't even list on a fairly simple B&B website because the rooms were "too simple" which started us asking people just what do they have in France. I think you'll find that Carrefour/Leclerc/etc. will have a lot to answer for by the end of the year with all those cheapo TVs & DVDs because, from what I've seen, it's prompted a lot of people to up the ante considerably this year as far as room facilities go.

I think that our strongest point is the individual attention that you only get in family run places and hotels at the very top end of the range but when you have DVD players down to £30 I think that more and more people will expect them to be provided.

 

Arnold

[Cerise]

Hi Miki Arnold et al

When I said surprising, I wasn't criticising - just that I have found that what guests want are not technological things but more personal service.

The things which work for us (don't mind sharing) are offering picnic bags and ice packs, the fridge, a place to put and clean dirty walking boots and hiking stuff, preparing itineraries for people, offering ideas for days out and helping plan them, books and magazines, involving people in local events (which often means going with them) and lots of personal service.  We have plenty of sitting places both in rooms and elsewhere.  Guests often complain that in other places they have stayed there was nowhere to sit and write a postcard.  We also offer beach towels, as we have a beach on our river and often people are not prepared.  I might say that some of said towels are not in the first flush of youth, but people are delighted to have towel to take to the river with them.  When people book I ask if there is anything special they would like to do for their holiday and try to have relevant info available when they arrive or pre-book things for them.  We try to spend time with the guests when they arrive and do things to make life easy for them.  I personally find that they like that and so far we have not had anyone demand TV or DVD even in winter.

I appreciate that everyone's experience is different, but think that in this very busy world we are living in it is often little things that matter more than large expensive ones.

Incidentally, Arnold, the latest thing that has really pleased people is postcards with the stamps already on. I bought some from the local chateau society (so they benefit) stuck ordinary stamps on and they are selling well at a euro each.  I don't make money - but the local society does - and the guests think it great that they can simply buy write and post card without too much effort.  Quite surprised even me how popular they are.

Good luck to you all - whatever works for you.

Maggi

www.les-cerisiers.net

[mascamps.com]

As you say Maggi, it's the personal service that sets us apart from the hotels and no matter what bits of technology that you provide that should never detract from that.

That said, in the course of the last couple of months of looking for places to list ourselves and chatting to other owners, I've found that it's becoming more the norm to have things like the DVD players (most likely because they're so cheap now). In particular the American sites tend to assume that even the smallest B&B will have ensuite rooms and TVs (or at least some form of "entertainment device" in the room) and there was at least one site where it was actually impossible to complete the listing without having some kind of technology in the room.

The other side of the coin is that the people that don't currently come may not be coming because you don't have the TV etc. in the room ie my theory is that adding the TV etc. will add some people who might not otherwise come. Whilst, to date, we are in the same situation as yourself as in not having specific requests for TVs/DVDs/etc., we have had one or two people staying who seemed to be suffering withdrawal symtoms from such things.

In practice, what we're hoping to do is to install a TV & possibly DVD player in about half of our rooms to see how it goes. We're fortunate to have thick enough walls so that the sound shouldn't be a problem in those rooms.

We had some people who we took on local tours as you've done and it went down very well but we don't think we'd be able to do it throughout the summer as it was just too labour intensive.

 

 

Arnold

[Richard-R]

For any business to survive and grow, 'added value' services are a must, be they free or paided for, and should be added. A T.V. and a DVD playedr that also plays CD i would think is a must in a very competitve industry. Cost very little. Have a flat fee of say €2 euros a day for access to your DVD collection. Same with CD's. Also a buy a cheap computer and offer internet access in one of your public areas. If you think like a hotel. Guests that stay in and spend money on drinks and food with you are good. They go out and they spend there money with other people =bad. Now it must be said that i've never run a B&B but have owned a couple of bars and other businesses in London and have retired at 32, so i must have done something right.

My motto is: Look at what other people offer, than offer more. repeat customers are gold. Treat all customers like gold dust...you want them back and to recommmend you. The more you offer the more you get.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]For any business to survive and grow, 'added value' services are a must, be they free or paided for, and should be added. A T.V. and a DVD playedr that also plays CD i would think is a must in a very ...[/quote]

Hi,

I couldn't agree with you less. Not in what you say with respect to giving extras, but in thinking like a Hotel. If you think like a hotelier, you blur the essential difference between them and B&Bs, and you play directly into the hands of those who seek to see us taxed like Hotels. So, let's KEEP us different.

As for TV DVD and all that. You are aware that the SACEM are seeking to make you pay performing rights if you provide such items for the use of clients?

How many of you reckon to provide a TV, Computer etc etc in your private friends'/guest room if you have one? I certainly don't. I want my guests to feel as if they are staying just as if they were a personal friend who, at the end of their stay with us, pays. And everything WE do and don't do is in that perspective.

Sorry to sound like a misery, but I feel this is a very important point. We should also be aware that Arnold is going to be running something that the French authorities will be treating as an Hotel, and so his perspective and ours are likely to be completely different. Not wrong, but different.

With respect to US expectations. At $120 to $150 a night, B&Bs can well be expected to provide a completely different level of service. We're in France, running Chambres d'Hôtes probably at more or less typical French prices. The two have very little in common.

[mascamps.com]

Ah but, Ian, the thing is that B&Bs DO provide extras. The difference is that our extras are, for the most part, in the area of personalised service. To get anything like the level of personal service that you get in any B&B you'd need to move up to five stars in hotel terms. Even then, you get very much a standardised "personal" service whereas in a B&B or other family run place the guests really are treated like individuals.

That aspect is, to me, the greatest strength of any small family run place. Even the one time that, to date, we've run almost entirely "hotel style" which was with our réveillon event, the family that stayed with us then (all 27 of them!) continually thanked us throughout the period with us for all we were doing for them and afterwards we got such a stream of e-mails and letters from them that we were amazed at how well we had came across to them. I don't think that any hotel running a similar event would have gotten anything like the level of quite deeply felt thanks that we got. Again, I think that's largely due to the personal service aspect which is something that's just not possible to provide in a truly commercial hotel.

On the other hand, I don't think that B&Bs can afford to be left too far behind in terms of the tangible facilities that they provide. If you cast your mind back 50 years, hardly any B&B would have had ensuite rooms yet nowadays an ensuite room is expected and if you don't have them, I'd say you'd lose significant numbers of bookings. It's the same these days with the other extras. OK, the DVD players are a new development and I've not yet come across a hotel that has them but there are a lot of B&Bs out there who already have radios & CD players in the rooms; we've got the radio but we can add a DVD player these days for pretty much the same price as a CD player. We do have reservations about the DVD players which come from the "hotel" aspect that you described but economically it seems crazy to pay 30€ for a CD player when we can get the DVD for 40€.

I hadn't really considered the price difference although the difference between here and the US isn't that great if you look at broadly comparable properties: perhaps 20€ a night extra. But then, they have even more extras than I was considering, notably air conditioning which I suspect makes up the bulk of that extra 20€ by the time you count the cost of the electric and, of course, the rooms are much larger. Actually, I did see relatively cheap A/C units the other day in Leyroy Merlin... Nah, a step too far for the moment. I have to stop looking at the offers for these things!

Where the US is very different is that they seem to have more of a blurring between the one bedroom B&Bs through to some fairly sizeable inns which could easily fit into the Ibis catalogue over here.

What's the situation with SACEM anyway? I've indirectly asked here and in another forum about the legality of renting out DVDs but not had anything back about it. How much do SACEM charge, and does that cover you for renting out DVDs/CDs and the like?

 

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

We are getting carried away here a little bit. Some are trying to judge a B&B against hotel type accommodation.

I know some owners in the UK and the USA make their B&B in to a mini Caesars Palace BUT we are very much talking France here. We must not fall in to the trap of big time Joes and simply think that by offering all the luxuries of some hotels that will make ones B&B's attractive....WRONG, that is a BIG turn off.

B&B in France is celebrating its 50th Anniversary this year (as Ian will know) and is a real youngster in the world of accommodation. Believe it or not, many French have still not discovered Chambres D'Hôtes and are still going to one and two star hotels.

Now that is more our direct comparison, we run directly against that standard of hotel and it is one of the reasons why G de Fr are for the most part, extremely successful.  Chambres D'Hôtes will offer a warm welcome (well they should do !) and be different to what the client has experienced in many small hotels previously.

If one starts thinking that a B&B is just a small hotel is to miss the point completely. I repeat, this is NOT the UK or USA. Clients stay at small B&B's as they are aware that they will be made welcome in the owners house, they really do not expect 5 star gadgets and gizmos and I know plenty of our regular clients who would give us a massive swerve and go elsewhere if we tried to turn in to something as garish as that.

Please don’t think for one minute that we don’t look at the trends that are happening in the B&B trade here in France. I have seen many Brits bringing their UK thoughts and ideas in to the business, for some it works but to fall in to the trap of giving French clients an English type B&B and, this is THE Biggest point one needs to remember at all times, YOUR trade should be built on French clients, ignore them and if the B&B is your main income, you will perish, it’s that simple.

Sure some will say just how British it is and say how nice it is BUT the French are not called traditionalists for nothing. Many times I have seen Brits come in ands say they are going to do this and that, the French have got it wrong and so on, then a little while later it’s au revoir, that can go for some restos and bar owners as well.  I really do feel, the art is no more than to give the French what they want and add a few little touches to that, nice towels, shampoos and nice soaps etc if required. Decent breakfast (above the one and two star hotels normal dismal affair) and don’t forget with hotels, breakfast is not generally included in the price, whereas with B&B it should always be included in the nightly price.

Arnold you are running a hotel or Auberge, they come under exactly the same rules and if I were you, yes I would be trying different tactics to mine here but do try to seperate that gizmos that might seem attractive in a hotel will have a place in a French B&B.  If you were to read the T&C’s of  G de Fr, you will see what standards are expected and what one must have to gain each Epis. It will not say no DVD’s or No this or that but years of experience tells you what people will expect and their needs as well. As I said at the start, if I started putting all those things in the room, it would lose me more trade that it would gain for us.

 

Now for hotels, well I would say go for whatever you think, you have enough rooms to trial new ideas but just how many folks stay in our rooms long enough to play the latest games or watch the latest film is highly debatable. They come to Brittany to see the vast amount of places of interest,. They then want a good meal at the start and for some, at the end of each day as well, a relaxing atmospehere, attentive hosts (even when the day has proven a little too much !!) a comfortable bed, nice bed linen and a refreshing shower.  Not rocket science just experience gained over many years.

 

Richard with due respect, I also run and sold some succesful ventures but none of those could relate to running B&B's, to an Hotel, well yes, possibly it could do so.

 

 

[mascamps.com]

True enough re the tradition Miki.

However, it was actually some of our French guests who were looking for the TV; the English don't because they haven't really got any interest in watching French TV. In fact, in our experience, it is only the French who watch the TV or who even expect it to be there. OK, it's in our lounge at the moment but it is certainly expected "somewhere". I suspect that might be due to our location: we get a lot of the "visiting friends & family" trade who are, of course, French. I fully agree with you re the normal tourist trade: we find that in practice, they are rarely back here early enough to even really think of watching a DVD film or whatever which is, of course, as it should be.

If I'd been here for years, I would have CD players in the rooms but since I don't, it seems more sensible to me to pay the extra 10€ to get a DVD player instead. In practical terms, we have had TV in one of our rooms for ages and it is appreciated but perhaps that might be because that particular room is generally only rented out to people travelling on their own. We're putting the TVs in about half of the rooms this year simply because we have found that a number of our French clients are looking for it. As I say, this might be because of the type of French client that we have picked up over the last year and perhaps this year it might well be quite different.

To my mind, a B&B/inn is quite like a mini five star hotel but only in terms of the service offered; gadjets are a completely different matter. That service difference is one reason why I think the B&Bs could give the 1 & 2 star hotels a very good run for their money if it was that bit easier to book them. As it is, there isn't really a B&B equivalent to the online booking that you get with hotels and I think that reduces considerably the number of people who would otherwise stay in B&Bs.

But irrespective of our querie re "gadjets", the single thing that's received the best feedback was the bottle of mineral water that we put in each room.

 

 

Arnold

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Arnold,

(Replying to your earlier message)

Ah but, Ian, the thing is that B&Bs DO provide extras. The difference is that our extras are, for the most part, in the area of personalised service. To get anything like the level of
personal service that you get in any B&B you'd need to move up to five stars in hotel terms. Even then, you get very much a standardised "personal" service whereas in a B&B or other
family run place the guests really are treated like individuals.     

Of course.

I don't think I made myself clear enough, sorry. In my reply to Richard, I said

I couldn't agree with you less. Not in what you say with respect to giving extras, but in thinking like a Hotel.

By that I meant to say that I quite agree that we do, and should do, more than the strictest and most austere minimum. What I don't think - and I'm deadly serious here - is that we should "look to" hotels as references for what we should do. That's less true for you as someone with 10 rooms, and whose business has (in my opinion at least) more in common with a family run hotel such as that run by our friends Alain and Claudine Paillier than a typical B&B run by a farmer to make ends meet, which is the tradition here in France.  By the same token, I don't believe that we should look to the USA for references either. We're in France, and B&Bs in France should be _French_. 

As I take great pains to explain to my hotelier friends, we are not really in unfair competition with them, our business is different and complementary. In my opinion, we should take very great care to keep it that way, and indeed to deepen the gap if it's at all possible.

I'd be delighted to list what I personally feel should be our differences, but this should (IMO) be perhaps in a different thread. In general, however, I feel that the fact that we're Brits shouldn't so colour our view of what is a B&B that our places no longer conform to what can be recognised by the French as Chambres d'Hôtes. For want of anything better, it seems to me that the Gîtes de France guidelines make a good basis for discussion, even if I'm by no means in complete agreement with them all. 

As I said earlier, my overall philosophy is to treat my guests as if they are friends coming to stay. At the end of their stay they pay, of course, but as much as possible I want them to feel that they are at ease and at home. So, no little paper wrapped blocks of soap. Who gives that to their friends? Who makes their friends' beds every day? Who tidies their bedroom every day? So these are things we _don't_ and _shouldn't_ do, IMO. On the other hand, what hotelier welcomes their guests by their first names, helps them take their baggage to their
rooms, sits down with them over a complementary cup of tea/glass of beer etc when they arrive, and sits with them over breakfast to help them plan their day, if they want. These are extras we _do_  and _should_ give.

So, using that as your perspective, _would_ you provide a DVD player, computer, TV and phone all in a room you were going to put your friends or family into? I wouldn't, so by that
token I won't put them into a B&B guest room - even if Gîtes de France were one day to ask me to.

As for your comments

On the other hand, I don't think that B&Bs can afford to be left too far behind in terms of the tangible facilities that they provide. If you cast your mind back 50 years, hardly any B&B
would have had ensuite rooms yet nowadays an ensuite room is expected and if you don't have them, I'd say you'd lose significant numbers of bookings.

I'd say that as long as it's compatible with the essence of what it is to be a B&B, yes. But B&B owners  shouldn't _think_ as if they were in the same line of business as Hotels. We're
not. We're not in the same line of business as campsites either, so we shouldn't feel worried about not providing swimming pools, tennis courts, bbq and laundry facilities either.

As to whether we lose bookings or not, I feel that if we lose bookings from people who are looking for 5 star Hotel facilities at French B&B prices, tough. If YOU (were you to be running a B&B) were to offer your guests such things as overnight  laundry, air conditioning,  on site jewellery shop, night porter service, meals at all hours, choice of meals and so on and
so on, all of which could be justified as fulfilling a demand, then in my book, you would be carrying out a business which is indistinguishable from being an hotel, and you should be
subject to French hotel regulations regarding safety, cleanliness, taxe professionnelle and so on.

I hadn't really considered the price difference although the difference between here and the US isn't that great if you look at broadly comparable properties: perhaps 20€ a night extra.

Don't agree at all. The average price for a room in a 3 épi B&B in France is €44, the cheapest around €30. The cheapest B&B I ever saw in the States was $100. That's more than double the price, Arnold. I think they're completely different beasts. The fact that there is an American type of establishment with the name B&B has nothing to do with the fact that WE
choose to translate Chambres d'Hôtes by the British "B&B". You could use the same kind of reasoning over the words "pavement". In the USA it would be perfectly normal to say "Don't walk on the pavement", in England it would be considered perverse. I won't go further than to mention "trunk", "pants", "rubber", all of which have wildly different meanings in the two countries.  In any case, unless you're intending to specialise in the US-ian market, I don't think it is in any way helpful to refer to what they do there except to know what they may understand by the expression.

What's the situation with SACEM anyway? I've indirectly asked here and in another forum about the legality of renting out DVDs but not had anything back about it. How much do
SACEM charge, and does that cover you for renting out DVDs/CDs and the like.

As I said elsewhere, SACEM is currently arguing that offering our clients music/entertainment etc of any kind and by any means of transmission/reproduction, counts as public performance, and that it is subject to the payment of performing rights. Gîtes de France is arguing that the legal status of a B&B is that of a private house (which it currently is - "Lieu Privé), and that allowing people to watch TV is NOT public performance as our establishments are not "open to the public" (Lieu Public). So far the decision has not been made by the "powers that be". However it is hard to dispute that any
form of music reproduction (CD, radio, TV, DVD MP3 player) that we provide in individual rooms, is exclusively for the use of clients. If the equipment is in the room that we use for our
own purposes (sitting room) but to which our guests have access, then I think the GdF position is much more defensible.

As for what SACEM charge, I'm afraid I don't remember, it was mentioned the other day, but I'm afraid I didn't remember. It was discussed with reference to TVs and I _think_ I heard it
said that it is related to the number of sets. Sorry. At our recent meeting, the GdF staff seemed to be saying on the one hand that we shouldn't pay at all, and on the other, that they wouldn't defend us in court if we didn't. Sacem charges are retroactive, by the way.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki

You said:-

We are getting carried away here a little bit. Some are trying to judge a B&B against hotel type accommodation.

Right ON!!!  Exactly what I've been saying.

If one starts thinking that a B&B is just a small hotel is to miss the point completely.

Again, I agree completely.

Please don't think for one minute that we don't look at the trends that are happening in the B&B trade here in France.

Quite. And I'd go further. It behoves us to look at what is offered elsewhere. Not necesarily with a view to emulating it, far from it, but to know what expectations clients from other parts of the world may have, so that they don't get disappointed when they come. I'd much prefer to turn away a family with completely false expectations, and send them to somewhere which WILL please them, than to take their money and have them disappointed.

I have seen many Brits bringing their UK thoughts and ideas in to the business, for some it works but to fall in to the trap of giving French clients an English type B&B and, this is THE
Biggest point one needs to remember at all times, YOUR trade should be built on French clients, ignore them and if the B&B is your main income, you will perish, it's that simple.

Again, I agree 100%. I think it's reasonable to let our "britishness" illuminate and possibly even modify our way of running a B&B business, but at the end of the day it HAS to be
recognisably a B&B business (by French definitions).

Arnold you are running a hotel or Auberge, they come under exactly the same rules and if I were you, yes I would be trying different tactics to mine here.

And mine here.

just how many folks stay in our rooms long enough to play the latest games or watch the latest film is highly debatable. They come to Brittany to see the vast amount of places of
interest,. They then want a good meal at the start and for some, at the end of each day as well, a relaxing atmosphere, attentive hosts (even when the day has proven a little too much !!) a comfortable bed, nice bed linen and a refreshing shower. Not rocket science just experience gained over many years.
 
Again, boring though it seems, I agree 100% with you, except that with us, it's the unspoilt countryside of the Limousin that they're seeking. Without wanting to blow our own trumpet,
we have the highest occupancy level of the entire Corrèze relative to the number of rooms and their classification. Yet we have no radios, no TVs, no phones, no swimming pool and don't accept animals. We DO offer a warm welcome to spotlessly clean, well decorated and comfortable rooms with wall-to-wall carpeting, thermostatic showers, silent plumbing and a damn good breakfast with home made jams, farm butter and yoghurt, and home cooked croissants. All at very reasonable prices. Damned hard work, though!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]True enough re the tradition Miki. However, it was actually some of our French guests who were looking for the TV; the English don't because they haven't really got any interest in watching French TV...[/quote]

Hi again Arnold,

(replying this time to your second message)

I can well understand that your French visitors should look for TVs for two reasons. Firstly because their references are those of Hotels, because B&Bs are not really part of the established accommodation scene, and secondly because what you are offering seems to be pretty close to a small family run Guest House or Hotel.

However in the 10 years we've been running a B&B here, we've only ever been asked about TV three times. Once was by some Mexicans who were touring France during the Soccer World Cup, who wanted to see how their team was doing. Once by some French who wanted to watch the Rugby match between the UK and France and the third time by another sports fanatic who wanted to see how "his" team did against (don't remember which big name team). I'd not say they wouldn't have watched TV were it in their rooms, but I've never ever been asked about it by people phoning up with an enquiry.

I take the point re water on the other hand. As it happens there's little point in us doing that since we have magnificent drinking water from the taps, which we tell them about.

[mascamps.com]

I take your point Ian about our offering possibly being slightly different from the "standard" B&B offering.

We have never been explicitly asked about TV except in respect of our gite (which is a whole different ballgame, of course) but had inherited the TV in our lounge from the previous owner. Some of the French that we've had staying were very obviously missing having their TV, hence our idea of providing it in their room (although, ironically, the couple that especially like their TV can't have it in the room that they always specifically ask for due to the walls being somewhat too thick).

We've also had the rugby supporters who, as with yourselves, prefer to watch the TV together.

It's interesting that you bring up the notion of us catering to "the world" who don't have expectations quite the same as the French. Miki is quite right in saying that anyone running a B&B/inn/hotel/whatever here is nuts in not first catering for the French and second for everyone else. However, we have a mix that is about 40% French, 40% British and 20% from elsewhere therefore we need to take account of what everyone else's expectations might be because the majority of our clients aren't French. For instance, we are thinking of adding a kettle to the rooms because that's expected by our British audience; in fact our French guests much prefer our filtered coffee and therefore we will also continue to offer that. I think the problem we have is to be "inclusive" in our offering and trying to at least meet the expectations of the majority: to do otherwise would go against our aim to provide a personal service to all of our guests.

The origin of my own debate about the DVD was brought on when I tried to list on a Canadian B&B website (which has listings from all over the world). It was actually impossible to complete the listing without ticking at least one box as to "technology" in the room. I do take your points that people may be coming to some B&Bs here because they want to get away from the phones and whatnot (and I'm one of those when I'm on hols in the country myself) but rather than exclude myself from that listing I ended up putting clock/radios in each room. So, in effect, the world has arrived on our doorstep with standards different from the French norm by way of thinks like that particular site.

Actually, I was quite surprised at some of the things that people have in "real" B&B rooms here (I duplicated the original question on another forum). I for one would have place in-room safes squarely in the 3 star hotel category yet at least one B&B has installed them. Likewise the kettles (presumably largely aimed at the brit market). It isn't that we're aiming to match hotels feature by feature but that we look at what they have or might have next year and consider each item in turn which I think needs to be done even at the level of the one room B&B. How else did we get to the point where ensuite B&B rooms are taken as a minimum standard? Our predecessors must have had a similar debate some decades ago for us to get to the point where they are the norm.

Wendy and I had an interesting conversation on the topic of "what is a B&B" this afternoon whilst you guys were typing away. OK, there's the legal definition, but what makes one place with 5 guest rooms a "hotel" when the place next door with 6 guest rooms is a "B&B"? Our own place might look "hotel size" but you could build it in the courtyard of GdF listed place down the road from us. In fact, that particular place is larger than all but one of the local hotels in terms of sheer size and also in terms of the number of guest rooms (they've 6 B&B rooms and 5 gites ie a total of about 16 bedrooms).

Seriously guys: what does make one place a B&B and another a hotel? To my mind, it's principally the personal service and individual attention that each guest gets, but what do you think?

 

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Wendy and I had an interesting conversation on the topic of "what is a B&B" this afternoon whilst you guys were typing away. OK, there's the legal definition, but what makes one place with 5 guest rooms a "hotel" when the place next door with 6 guest rooms is a "B&B"? Our own place might look "hotel size" but you could build it in the courtyard of GdF listed place down the road from us. In fact, that particular place is larger than all but one of the local hotels in terms of sheer size and also in terms of the number of guest rooms (they've 6 B&B rooms and 5 gites ie a total of about 16 bedrooms).

Seriously guys: what does make one place a B&B and another a hotel? To my mind, it's principally the personal service and individual attention that each guest gets, but what do you think?

Arnold,

Basically you can go to the authorities and register your business an hotel with the number of rooms from one to a thousand.

It will entail registering yourself at the C de Com and thus yoiu will incur all the cotisation charges etc, which of course you could do so with a B&B, depending on circumstances.

 If your hotel is new or renovated or even sold then the place can be due a thorough check up etc etc. You will possibly need a visit from a few of the authorities, pompiers, insurance, sanitation etc and that can be severely expensive.

The above will not apply to a B&B. If you want to play safe, then a B&B should only have 5 max rooms, I have known folks get a little worried when they have said they have 6 rooms. It is tottering on a hotel to say 6 in many areas.

As I say, if one wanted to, one could try and register your B&B as an hotel but you wouldn't want to !!

 

[mascamps.com]

Oh, yes, I know that legally there's the 5 (more generally 6 these days) rooms limit, but what I was asking was: what makes a place a B&B rather than a hotel? What makes it feel that way?

For instance, our place is certainly "small hotel" size and (generally) in layout but we have kept the "B&B feeling" going by the comments we've received ie they're "B&B comments" rather than "hotel comments" in terms of what they say and how they say it. We want to keep people feeling that way about us because we hope to offer the best of both worlds (that's one comment that I'm sure will raise a smile in years to come, Miki!).

So, what is it that makes people feel like they're "at home"? We're certainly, by and large, laid out like a small hotel yet we've had a considerable number of comments along the lines that we've made people feel like they're at home.

 

 

Arnold