Possible fraud

[mascamps.com]

Before I forget, it struck me that we should have a running thread on this to spread the word as they seem to be getting more and more frequent...

 

Latest is an e-mail from the Antiles asking for our gite for two weeks in August from a legit-looking e-mail address. Just got a request for our bank account details to make the transfer of the full balance which has me thinking scam.

 

 

Arnold

 

[Esperaza]

I try to do all my transactions this way.

I have just purchased a new caravan from Germany and requested the dealer's bank account details which they provided and transferred the funds using SWIFT, it beats s*dding about with bankers drafts etc.

Yesterday I sold my car and the purchaser offered payment by cheque, this I refused and gave him my bank sort code and account number to enable him to do an internet transfer. I will phone him when the funds arrive so he can come to collect.

I do not like moving away from my keyboard to complete any financial transactions and if anyone objects, then I don't do business with them!

 

[Miki]

Like I told you Arnold, we also, offer our bank details to many clients for them to pay in to our account.

Italians for instance, for a large part, do not like divulging their credit card details unless they really have to. By offering them the Swift/Iban method, they can only use the details to pay in, they cannot request money to be taken out without your express permission and even then, your bank would need to be in possesssion of their full banking details.

Not sure what you were really worried about, not everyone likes credit cards. Far too much fraudulence these days, to make everyone 100% safe about dealing with cards.

[CatherineS2]

I think you only need to be worried if they "transfer"  a sum larger than you are requesting, and then ask you to refund them the difference!

DO NOT, under any circumstances, refund the difference until you are absolutely sure that the money has cleared and is really in your account.

There has been a lot of discussion about this subject recently on the laymyhat.com forum, and in fact they now have a "Scam Email Enquiries" forum just on this subject.

Hope this helps!

[mascamps.com]

The issues that I have with this one are:

1. It's from the Antilles which is an area that is a bit dodgey in general;

2. Although it's from a "proper" domain (ie not a yahoo address), the website corresponding to it looks thrown together ie it could be a part of a scam; and

3. They haven't asked how much the place is (granted it's listed on the website, but even so people usually ask in the hope of getting a discount or something).

I've big concerns re the business of when the money is really in the account too, relating to the "refund" issue.

The sheer length of the scam forum on laymyhat is very worrying!

What I've done is to tell them that they can do the bank transfer to paypal and thence to me which removes my concerns re handing out bank details; due to the time difference they've not had a chance to get back to me on this option yet.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

Looks like this one was a fraud as they've gone quiet now.

However, I was thinking about what you guys were saying this afternoon re it being relatively common for people to want to pay by bank transfer and how hyper-paranoid ole me could accommodate them. What I was thinking that I will do next time someone (hopefully legit) wants to do it is to give them the details of a savings account and let them transfer it into that. This seems to avoid the problem of them transferring funds out (yeah, I know, paranoid) as there wouldn't be anything there except for their payment and even that wouldn't be there very long.

 

Arnold

 

[Alan]

Arnold

 

I have been told like you many times that it is very safe to give your bank details for the transfer of money, however like you i am very paranoid that something could go wrong. I have done it about 3 times and its been fine , but I still worry.

I had an enquiry the end of April for somebody who wanted to stay for the month of May, as soon as a month was mentioned alarm bells started to ring, I normally request a deposit and take payment at the end of the stay but in this instance I requested full payment in cash on the day of arrival. After many emails I got one requesting that he would like to pay by cheque or international money order, to which I replied NO, but if you like the funds can be transfer directly to my bank. Of course I heard no more

But I still wonder even the funds had been transfered if the money was from a scam at some stage could it then be taken away again.

 

Alan (also paranoid)

[mascamps.com]

I used to work in a place that did large bank transfers and, worryingly in these days of widespread fraud, it IS possible to use someones bank details to debit their account. I know this because we made a teensy mistake once and had to debit accounts for which we only had the authorisation to credit with money. Aside from the admin hassle, there was no problem in doing this, hence my unease in handing out details of my business account to people who I don't know.

The only exception to being able to debit the accounts was those accounts which were savings accounts because you can't do direct debits from them.

I bet that puts the wind up those of you who regularly hand out your bank details!

Incidently, this is how most of the "Nigerian" frauds work. They just ask you for your bank details to credit the millions that supposedly some cousin of their has knocking around. What happens is that they use the very same details to debit your account instead.

The solution appears to be to open a savings account and to use the savings account to accept bank transfers. One problem with this is that I know that not all French savings accounts can accept international bank transfers (eg Credit Agricole will only let you transfer money into a current account as far as I know). If I'm stuck I was thinking of using a UK account like Smile or Egg but perhaps Ing.fr would work.

 

Arnold

(Totally paranoid 'cos he was in charge of IT security in a previous life!)

[Esperaza]

Everytime you write a cheque or sanction a direct debit you are releasing your sort code and account number to some-one. Providing you do not expose your passwords or other secure personal data what have you to be concerned about?

Should my bank release any of my funds without verifying my passwords and other secure data, then I would hold them accountable.

[mascamps.com]

Very true re the chequebooks. However, the fact remains that there's enough information on the cheques to let someone debit your account. What's different with the internet is that the crooks have direct access to you whereas, hopefully, you won't be handing cheques to crooks.

When we debited the accounts we didn't need any passwords or security information - just the basic account details were enough. As I said, a lot of the Nigerian frauds are just means of collecting this information from you because that's all that they need - they don't need your passwords to set up the debits.

A number of UK banks (not all) give blanket cover re internet frauds and if you ran the payments through one of those it would be OK. I don't know what the situation is re fraud cover from French banks but presumably not all banks offer it. On the other hand, using a saving account to receive the money avoids the problem altogether.

Worrying, isn't it?

 

Arnold

 

[Buntina]

There is no problem in giving out account details - what are people going to do with them? the details are next to useless by themselves - a quick google brings back these results - all with bank details listed, the last noe is a currency exchange company, so if there was a problem or a way into accounts through these details their details would be a good place to start

http://www.baas.ac.uk/administration/standordform.asp
http://www.active24.co.uk/contact/
http://www.workpermit.com/alternative_payments.htm
http://www.fxcm.co.uk/deposit-funds.htm

[Lizzie15]

"

"Should my bank release any of my funds without verifying my passwords and other secure data, then I would hold them accountable."

 This is EXACTLY what happened to us! A French bank (with 2 initials)released over £10,000 of our funds in response to a fraudulent fax- they did not ring back to check it was us!!No authorisation had been given to release funds by fax. The bank denies all responsibility and refuses to give us the money back .The case is going to court!!! This happened just before Christmas and put our account into the red!!We are about £11,000 out of pocket at the moment plus solicitors fees etc! Nightmare!

 

ps- I have had this account nearly 8 years and until now, all had been well, I even defended this bank when people such as Mazan and TU said they were useless!!!!

 

 

[Miki]

I have told Arnold this privately and on the forum.

Your bank cannot legally allow anyone to take money from your account without your permission in one form or another.

With Swift/Iban transfers, it is for persons to transfer money to your account. You offer your clients this and they send money by interbank transfer. Now please Arnold, by getting paranoid and dreaming up scenarios because of you once being an IT security chap is one thing but what we need to know is, what proof have you EVER had that some clever sod has managed to do the impossible and take money out of someones account who had offered them their Iban/Swift details ?

We have offered it out like confetti at times, we have it as a signature on our emails, to be able to save time looking for it and typing it in every time someone needs to know the details.

If you know better, then please let us all know, otherwise it is not good for business when someone needs to use this method and someone is putting the wind up them to make them avoid doing it. This thing about paying in to a savings account means nothing, what if you had no money in a bank account, would that be better ?

Get a grip Arnold, do you creep up to very corner and take a tentative look around it before you walk on ! I wouldn't think so, it would take a year to walk around Saint Malo if I did that !!

You have to go with the facts, anyone worried, simply go in to your bank and ask if any dangers might befall you if you give your Swift/Iban details out and if they say "yes" then inform us all and we can sue our banks for putting our dosh in peril with their worldwide scam !!

The one thing anyone must guard against, is the email attempted booking that states that more money than is required will be paid in (with a story of an absolute load of b*******s)and please send the "over" amount to a certain address. Now don't get me wrong but what idiot falls for that old con ? Although a friend told us and we tend to agree, that it is borne out of need or greed on the part of the person who wants to believe it, as always, a good con gives something to the conned and more to the conner.

Take a pill Arnold

Lizzie, you probably need to tell us more. This "fax" had to have some knowledge about you and your account, for a start how did they know you were even at the bank and how you even had that much money in the account. It was not picked out of the air and my gut feeling is there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

I guess it is personal, is it ?

[mascamps.com]

Miki, the proof that I have that this can be done is that I personally have done exactly this (for legit reasons). We had no permission from the account holders to withdraw the money and neither had we permission from the banks (theirs or ours) to do so. Yes, I know that it sounds ridiculous to be able to do this but I can assure you that it is definitely possible to do as I've done it.

At a very simplisitic level, think about the details that are required to set up a direct debit, standing order or fax transfer from your account:

1) your name and address (they will have that from you or your website);

2) your bank account number and sort code (you say you give this out);

3) the name and address of your bank (they can look this up from the sort code); and

4) something approximating a signature (which is rarely, if ever, checked by banks)

The reason for using a savings account is that all current accounts allow withdrawals even if there is no money in the account whereas savings accounts refuse all direct debits and don't take standing orders.

There's no problem in handing out your bank details to your clients. Where the problem lies is that it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the legit clients from the fraudsters. You reckoned that my Antilles client was legit; it now appears that they weren't. That's how hard it is to tell the legit requests from the fraudsters these days.

 

 

Arnold

 

[Teamedup]

Lizzie, I am so sorry that it got to this stage. Did you porte plainte against the bank incidentally.

 

[Miki]

Arnold said "...There's no problem in handing out your bank details to your clients. Where the problem lies is that it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the legit clients from the fraudsters. You reckoned that my Antilles client was legit; it now appears that they weren't. That's how hard it is to tell the legit requests from the fraudsters these days"

Arnold,

If you know about these things then you ought to know that an Iban Swift gives ALL ones details. Look at the examples that Mike has shown in his set of URL's.

Utter disclosure of all but your dogs name, it is a form of credit NOT payments out, where one has to personally go in and fill the forms out.

Yes there are fraudulent happenings, by far, generally the worst in the world are credit card incidents and this Swift /Iban has to be far safer than someone trusting over the phone, emailing, faxing or even on so called safe secure internet bookings but the incident rate, if one is vigilant is pretty low for the individual.

I was wrong in saying that no one can take funds from your account legally, there are people here who can, ranging from the Govt through to Trèsor Publics and other types such as Councils and courts for varying purposes.

What I won't stand though Arnold is you making false accusations, it's pretty poor form to say I said that the people from Antilles were kosher and legit, when I never had any info about them, so never entered an opinion. I told you, that you should insist on a Swift Iban transfer and that you should also tell them to pay all known charges. So please get it straight and don't read between lines that aren't there.

Sorry but I personally do not find it too hard to tell the fraudsters from the genuine clients. They act (and are) completely different. I use simple rules, if it don't feel right, check it out and if it still smells chuck it out. Spent my life in "work markets" that have more than their fair share of conmen, all are nice, that's why it works..................

[Lizzie15]

[quote]Lizzie, I am so sorry that it got to this stage. Did you porte plainte against the bank incidentally.[/quote]

yes we did TU

"Lizzie, you probably need to tell us more. This "fax" had to have some knowledge about you and your account, for a start how did they know you were even at the bank and how you even had that much money in the account. It was not picked out of the air and my gut feeling is there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.
I guess it is personal, is it ?"

 

wow- where did this come from??What can possibly be personal? There is no more to it!!!! The fax had our home address on it ( so do our cheques as they are a "strangers" account)and the signature looked like mine- either forged or photocopied from somewhere? From a cheque I had written? The name on the bottom of the fax was my husbands but it was "my" signature! We were in France at the time !When we were in the bank talking to the official another call came through asking for money!!!!!!!!!  Fraud pure and simple. Now I understand you not wanting scaremongering but this really happened. It happened to us after over 7 years of banking with them with no problems- it could happen to others!!This is the reason for my posting!!!!Nothing personal !!!!!! Other people beware!Make sure your bank rings you back with a security question if you have a fax transfer!!!

 

[Miki]

Lizzie said "......wow- where did this come from??What can possibly be personal? There is no more to it!!!!"

Lizzie do read it again. What the hell did you think I meant ? Take a deep breath please, I don't kick people when they are down.

By personal, I meant it might be too personal to talk about, as it might have been someone close to you or a workman had tried to con more money out of you, that's all. Your reply shows it was not a "personal" matter.

I have to say though, this case of fraud does not really bear on the Swift Iban type of money transfer, this is a scam that the bank have been embarassed by and as is typical here, banks will not often put their hands straight up and admit it was their fault. In your case, when the call came through asking for money it was pretty obvious it was not you and the bank one would have thought, would have spotted their error quite easily but, as is France, common sense and sensibility are not their forté. Good luck anyway.

[Lizzie15]

Miki ,Ok this was a misunderstanding!  We've ALMOST become philosophical about it!!Well,it was either that or lying in bed worrying about it every night! We are not letting them get away with it though as it could obviously happen to others! We will fight it to the end!I want my money back! we all need to check up on our banks' methods of releasing funds- do they make a "contre appel"? If they don't check up anyone else could be hit too

 

[Miki]

No problems Lizzie.

You "appear" to be showing greater restraint than we would be doing. I detest most banks, although the bank we use for business now have so far been better than the previous two in different regions.

The best one we ever had, was when we became friends with the branch manager, as he lived in our commune. Just as we thought we had the system well sussed, the sod went and retired and the new chap immmediately mucked up our way of "doing things" when the ex boss was still in charge ! and our credits and debits were switching between 3 accounts in the same bank !! Not their fault, Oh no...we shouldn't have sons with the same surname and have a business and a private account with them it is confusing !! We never do now, we use more than one bank, for differing "things".

I reckon you will win in the end but it is so stupid to have even gone this far but I have to say, the sad thing is, that it is not as rare as it really ought to be.

[mascamps.com]

Sorry, Miki, I paraphrased a bit of what you said. What you basically said though was to treat them as legit and to give them the details of my account. However, the Antilles people didn't respond when I offered an alternative means of bank transfer which is the usual end of a scam.

As Mike says there are places that quote their bank details. However, I think you'll find that the places he quotes keep a very watchful eye on their accounts unless, of course, they are quoting business savings accounts (you can't tell from the account numbers) or have had their accounts marked as being for in-payments only. Us small fry can't afford the time to keep a constant eye on our accounts and may only discover that there's a problem the following month when the bank statement arrives.

What I'm suggesting is that for those people who do hand over bank details to their clients for payments, it would give them a lot more security if those details corresponded to a savings account. If you do that and happen to be taken in by fraudsters at some point then it doesn't matter because there's nothing that they can do with the account details.

Swift/IBAN isn't really any safer than credit card payments. It's just that there are fewer people who have your IBAN details than have your credit card details so there will naturally be more credit card related frauds than IBAN related ones. With the IBAN details, plus a few more items that fraudsters contacting the likes of ourselves will have, there is no great problem in taking money out of peoples' accounts.

If anyone still believes that this isn't possible, they can PM me their name, address and IBAN and I'll fax them back a form to hand or fax to their bank (I could fax this myself but would end up in jail!) which will set up payments from their account to mine.

(UK accounts please, as I don't have an example form for a French bank)

 

Arnold