Signing on for French unemployment benefit

[Fleur]

Dear all.

I (British but French tax resident) recently lost my job working for a UK firm in the UK and am now back home in France.

I plan to sign-up to Pole Emploi to recieve French unemployment benefit. The Pole Emploi website says that the abovementioned UK employment will be taken into account into assessing the amount of my entitlement "as long as I have worked in France since losing my job in the UK" - this bit in brackets is the critical condition that triggers my entitlement to French unemployment benefit ("Pôle emploi prend en compte les périodes de travail accomplies à l'étranger indiquées sur ce formulaire, à condition que vous ayez travaillé en France postérieurement à cette activité étrangère.").

My question therefore is; do I first need to have worked (even if it is only for one week) in France prior to signing up at Pole Emploi, or can I sign up for Pole Emploi first (which determines my start date for entitlement to French unemployment benefit) and then do a week's work?

My concern is that by signing up with Pole Emploi first would be detrimental to my claim for French unemployment benefit and, consequently, that I'd only be ultimately entitled to a UK level of unemployment benefit (albeit paid to me via the French state).

Any thoughts/experience of this situation would be most welcome. Thank you very much.

[NormanH]

• Vous remettez à Pôle emploi le document portable « U2 »,
  qui vous aura été préalablement délivré par l’institution de chômage de
  l’Etat que vous venez de quitter. Ce document atteste la durée précise
  du maintien de vos droits aux prestations de chômage (3 mois, dans la
  limite des droits acquis, cette période pouvant être éventuellement
  prolongée jusqu'à 6 mois, à la discrétion des Etats membres).
• C’est l’institution de chômage de l’Etat que vous venez de
  quitter qui continue de vous verser vos allocations, mais c’est Pôle
  emploi qui assure le suivi de votre recherche d’emploi en France. Si
  vous ne vous conformez pas au contrôle de la recherche d’emploi mis en
  œuvre par Pôle emploi, Pôle emploi peut être amené à vous remettre un document portable « U3 ». Sur
  ce document sont mentionnés certains faits susceptibles de modifier
  votre droit aux prestations de chômage (ex. refus de répondre à une
  offre d’emploi). Ces faits, s’ils sont constatés par Pôle emploi, sont
  transmis à l’institution qui verse vos allocations (dans cet exemple
  l’institution de l’Etat que vous venez de quitter), pour éventuelles
  suites à donner (ex. suspension du versement de l’allocation).

Does this arrangement still hold now that  the UK has left the EU?

[Cathar Tours]

In all member states until the 31st December 2020 after which it depends on the UK. Whatever the UK does to EU citizens in the UK will apply to UK citizens in the EU.

[idun]

https://uk.ambafrance.org/Le-retour-en-France-12102#Chomage

That link should be live. Had you read it before you left the UK?

No idea how it works, and if you have left  the UK, as to whether you will have forfeited any rights.

Also, chomage is not simply 'given' in France, people have to have worked for a certain period of time to get it, and in your case it would seem that you would need paper work from the UK to prove lots of things, and maybe even to get your health care in France? Sounds like your case is complicated.

[EuroTr@sh]

As said, I think the best plan would have been to sign on in the UK and return to France once you were actually in receipt of UK unemployment benefit. Then under EU rules you would be entitled to keep receiving your UK UB in France for up to 3 months while you looked for work. The UK would also cover your healthcare in France for those 3 months or until you find a job, whichever happens first. But I think you need to be already receiving UB for it to be transferable, so if you didn't sign on before you left I don't know if you can get away with signing on online and maybe they won't know you're not still in the UK looking for work?

I'm a bit confused by a couple of things you said:

"do I first need to have worked (even if it is only for one week) in France prior to signing up at Pole Emploi, or can I sign up for Pole Emploi first (which determines my start date for entitlement to French unemployment benefit) and then do a week's work?"

Since your entitlement to chômage will be triggered by having worked and then ceased working in France, your state date for entitlement won't be determined by the date you register as a jobseeker, will it? It will be determined by the date you stop work.

"My concern is that by signing up with Pole Emploi first would be detrimental to my claim for French unemployment benefit"

AFAIK anyone can register as a jobseeker. You don't have to be unemployed, you don't even have to be in France. Registering as a jobseeker is entirely separate from actually applying for chômage.

However I believe you're correct that if you have worked as an employee even for one day in France, and then stopped work for a valid reason, France includes qualifying periods of work in other EU states when calculating your entitlement.

That's how I've always understood it to work, at any rate.

[Fleur]

Thank you for all your replies - all are useful pointers.

To encourage further pointers from your collective wisdom, I should clarify that my sole goal is to legitimately get access to the significantly more generous (than the UK one) French unemployment benefit system.

To recap I am a British national, fiscally resident in France (ie a French tax payer) with a French social security number, having only ever worked in the UK but now unemployed.

All I know 100% is, if I had signed up for UK unemployment benefits before I left the UK, that would have precluded me from getting access to French unemployment benefits.

Thank you everyone again for helping me to navigate this - I fear that an unintentional wrong step taken at any one point in this complicated process could be detrimental to achieving my above-stated goal.

[NormanH]

I have had a few months  of chômage in the past when I was still working here, but of course I had worked already in France and was already registered with  the  then equivalent of Pôle Emploi.

I have never come across a case of someone who has never worked in France being able to claim on the basis of simply having worked in another country, but I can't  say that it can't be done.

[idun]

You situation is indeed strange, where where you paying your NIC's?

Everything I have read, says that you should have signed on in the UK first. Then transfer it. I have read that both on the UK site and the french site.

I suppose I do not understand your fiscal situation, as when we initially left France with a french salary, it had to be taxed in France and then declared in the UK when we did our returns here.

No work was being done, I believe it is called 'gardening leave'.

I know enough french people who have  done things wrongly and lost out on 'benefits' they should have had, including proper employment contracts. This due to timing, timing is very important in France.

[EuroTr@sh]

"All I know 100% is, if I had signed up for UK unemployment benefits before I left the UK, that would have precluded me from getting access to French unemployment benefits."

Why do you think that?

EU social security systems are co-ordinated so that the rules cover virtually every type of cross-border situation and specify which country is responsible and how they should deal with it.

There are very few situations where individuals get to choose or even influence which country is responsible for them - otherwise, everyone would obviously always choose to be covered by the country that has the most beneficial system! The rules are very specific based on the details of your situation. As I understand it, the rules for out of work benefits are that the EU state responsible (subject to you meeting their national conditions) is the one in which you worked most recently.

If you've never worked and paid cotisations in France you will not have not built up any entitlement here. You can register as a jobseeker but you can't claim chômage.

If your last job was in the UK, you would be entitled to UB there (provided you meet the UK conditions).

If you'd signed on there, then you are correct that you would have received UK UB and you would not have received French chomage. But since as far as I can see you don't qualify for chomage in any case, it would have been a case of receiving the lower benefit for up to 3 months or until you find work in France (plus having your healthcare in France funded by the UK), as opposed to receiving nothing at all until you find work in France.

When you find work, obviously whatever out of work benefits you were getting will end. After that, if you lose your job again it will all be reset and your entitlements will be calculated based on the situation at that time. If at that time your last job was in France, the UK will no longer be responsible for you and France will pay chomage for a duration calculated on the period you've worked in France, plus (I think) earlier qualifying periods in the UK.

I think.

[Fleur]

Dear Euro@Trash

Much appreciated.

Your informed and logical analysis, particularly your last paragraph, would suggest therefore that my next move should be to get a job (even a short-term/seasonal one) in France and, when that job comes to its natural end, sign up to the French unemployment benefit system where "France will pay chomage for a duration calculated on the period you've worked in France, plus (I think) earlier qualifying periods in the UK.".

Is my above assessment of my next suggested step consistent with what you have kindly written? Please do tell me where my argument is flawed/falls down.

Thank you vey much again.

[NormanH]

I think there may be a distinction  between the amount of time taken into amount when calculating how long the chômage will be paid for, and the amount paid.

I suspect that the latter will be based on the amount received for the French job (as mine was) but not on whatever you were earning in the UK.

[EuroTr@sh]

Nail head hit.

Being a salarié(e) in France is, AFAIK, the only way to acquire any entitlement to chômage, because your employer pays contributions into the chômage fund. If no contributions have ever been paid in your name, you have no entitlement.

For instance I've worked freelance in France for 10+ years and I've paid tens of thousands of euros in social security contributions over that time, but I have no entitlement to chômage because I've never been a salariée. My contributions have been for healthcare, professional training, pension and various other things but freelancers don't contribute to the chômage fund. Hence no entitlement to chômage.

So yes, you would need to get a CDI or intérim job and when it ends, go to pôle emploi and they will calculate your entitlement.

I can't post links on here, it makes the page go all funny, but google will throw up plenty of sites that explain how chômage is calculated. It seems you have to have been in work for at least 6 months out of the previous 12 to open your rights. Then your entitlement is be based on your work history.

2 caveats:

The whole chômage system was due to be overhauled earlier this year, that has now been delayed because of the health crisis so the old rules still apply, but I think the intention is to bring in the new rules once things have got back on track. I doubt they will be more generous.

I don't know what will happen after the end of transition but I suspect that they will only take account of how many hours' work you have done in France or other EU countries, ie excluding the UK, So one way and another your best bet would be to get a job asap, firstly so that you don't lose too many working days out of the 12 month qualifying period, and secondly, in case the end of transition puts a spanner in the works.

You say the French benefit is more generous than the UK benefit, I don't know what the UK pays but it looks as if the minimum in France is slightly less than 30€ per working day, which I guess is what you would get if the work you find in France is at SMIC. Doesn't sound massively generous, is the UK's really worse than that??

All this is assuming you have completed your initial 5 years residence in France and either have a CdS permanent or are entitled to one. If not, I'm not sure if it might be affected.

[EuroTr@sh]

Norman wrote: I think there may be a distinction  between the amount of time taken into amount when calculating how long the chômage will be paid for, and the amount paid.

[idun]

Is your health care sorted out?

As I said, your situation seems very complicated and I cannot quite get my head around how you avoided paying in the UK when you lived and worked there. ie not paying UK income tax, and the NIC's? you didn't say.

When we left France, and became UK residents, with a french salary on gardening leave for several years it was all the same to the french if there was work done or not, it was a salary, treat as such so we HAD to pay SS payments, all of them, including chomage in France and french income tax, which even those years ago was done as a type of PAYE, retenue a la source, it was called and still exists in this form for non residents.

I questioned URSSAF about the chomage bit, but was told, tough, it had become a solidarity payment, so we had to accept that.

Our UK health care was via an S form from France and as they were slow in sending it, I had Newcastle calling regularly, very annoyed to be honest.

Please remember this was all pre brexit, with so called 'free' movement.

Also, in your case, would you have an entitlement to Job Seekers allowance? If you have savings of over £16k you don't get it either.

My thought is get a job. I still don't understand why claiming seems to be more of a priority than working.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/unemployment-and-benefits/transferring-unemployment-benefits/index_en.htm

This looks like if you wanted to claim, you had to do it in the UK.

No one just gets chomage in France, ie a young person living at home won't get it, I think that the RSA may kick in for the very poor, but ordinary chomage needs the following.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/A13527

Durée minimale de travail

Pour avoir droit au chômage, il faudra

avoir travaillé 130 jours (910 heures soit 6 mois) sur les 24 derniers

mois (contre 4 mois sur les 28 derniers mois jusqu'à présent).

[EuroTr@sh]

Idun, I was presuming the OP had been paying tax and NICs in the UK, and when they said they are fiscally resident in France they actually meant, they are dual resident, ie pay tax/NICs in the UK, and declare worldwide income in France. I guess technically that would make them a cross-border worker, ie domiciled in one EU state but working in another, so as you say, UK responsible for healthcare in both UK and France.

Like you idun I don't see how you could be employed in the UK by a UK company and not having payroll contributions deducted.

That's one confusing thing, and I'm baffled too why the priority seems to be to get chômage rather than get a job. I'm skeptical how that's going to work because to keep getting chômage you do need to be actively seeking work. If the OP is anticipating being able to find a job easily and quickly in order to enter the chômage system, I would have thought it's going to be a balancing act sending off enough applications and attending enough interviews to satisfy their PE adviser month after month that they're trying their best to find a job, while at the same time avoiding being offered one. These advisers aren't daft, they're trained and they've seen it all before.

[Cathar Tours]

I have been following this with a bit of interest.

Well the most obvious thing is the UK is not a member of the EU so anything you get from France is entirely up to them and not the EU. This may change further if there is no trade deal at the end of the year.

I suspect they will however stick with the EU regulation that basically says if you have paid nothing into the system you can't get anything out.

The only thing you may get providing you have been paying into the UK NI system is an S1 which will last for up to two years and get you into the French (or any other EU member state) healthcare system after which you are expected stand on your own two feet.

Different countries have different ways of collecting social payments. The UK technically (but not all of it in reality) collects your healthcare, unemployment and pension though NI. In France I believe it is different and they are split into three different social payments. I believe you need to have paid into a Caisse (think that's the word) to be able to claim unemployment and like in the UK there is an employers contribution involved.

Don't forget that the social payment on your tax bill is not actually a social payment (confusing I know and it may well have changed now) and gives you no entitlement to anything from the French system.

The only benefits transferable from the UK are child benefit and some disability benefits although technically they are still paid by the UK government.

So I fear that to get any money from the French you need to have a job and pay your dews in France before you can claim anything and a week won't get it. It's not like the UK who seem to hand out money to immigrants from day one which is why they don't settle in France and are desperate to cross the channel.

There is one way you can "cheat" the system or so I am told. Rent out one or more rooms for 10 weeks of the year and call yourself a B&B. You will then pay tax and social contributions monthly based on income but it will get you into the system. You can get some information using the link below. You will have to be properly resident in France to do this or run any business.

https://lamaisonaucoin.com/blog/bed-and-breakfast-regulations-in-france/

[idun]

I don't think that S1's are any longer a foregone conclusion with regards to health care. They were dished out and then that stopped, for say, early retirees, a few years ago.

https://contactcentreservices.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/selfnhsukokb/AskUs_EHIC/en-gb/5061/general-ohs-information/22824/what-exportable-benefits-allow-someone-to-apply-for-an-s1

As it says, 'potentially' exportable.

I think that the OP was unclear and left me confused, when they said that they worked in the UK but were a french tax payer, well tax resident, but I don't know what that means either:-

they said:I (British but French tax resident) recently lost my job working for a UK firm in the UK and am now back home in France.

[EuroTr@sh]

I believe though that even though the UK has left the EU, virtually everything to do with citizens' rights stays the same until the end of transition. Under EU rules France is obliged to count periods of work in other EU states towards chomage entitlement, and I think that includes the UK until the end of transition. Brits still have freedom of movement so I guess everything related to that, including social security co-ordination, must still apply.

Re running a business t,hat doesn't give you entitlement to chomage. Same as in the UK, if you're self employed and your business fails, you get nothing. (In France they have been talking for years about making it optional / obligatory for independant workers to pay extra contributions and be covered for chômage, but it hasn't happened yet.)