taxe professionelle

[Tony C]

I have recently visited the tax office to regisister my gite business as a micro BIC. I am now surprised to recieve a form from the tax office asking for information regarding surface area etc in order to calculate my tax professionelle. I was under the impression that as I did not have to register as a business I would not be liable for this tax only a tax on my income. Can anyone advise.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Being under a Micro BIC does not, unfortunately, exempt one from taxes on property such as taxe d'habitation or taxe foncière. However, where a property is being used solely for professional purposes (a gite unattached to your home, for example, that is used only for paying guests) then taxe professionelle may apply in place of taxe d'habitation. Usually, taxe professionelle will be lower than taxe d'habitation. Taxe foncière liability will remain unchanged.

[MKT]

To register your gite business as a Micro Bic (presume this is done at the tax office) do you first need a Siret No? Is it obligatory to register as a business (and pay cotisations) before registering as a Micro Bic for tax? The cotisations would make renting the house out unstustainable anwyay it seems.

have spent the day reading old threads on this and am going round in circles trying to find out what I must do and when.

 

Maria

[Miki]

A micro bic is a tax regime, not as you seem to be thinking, a registration at the C de Com. So no, no Siret No needed.

No obligation, as the rules stand now, require you to register your gîte with the C de Com. (this is the norm but some folks with gîtes, that have more than a few, are being told it is a commerce and some depts are saying that if your only income is B&B and or gîtes, you are obliged to register)

For you, there appears just a legal obligation to declare your annual global earnings to the local Hotel des Impôts.

[MKT]

Thankyou so much Miki, pulse rate and blood pressure are returning to normal levels....if you know, to whom should i address the question 'am i obliged to register my gite in this department', or should i just asume not and hope for the best.

we have just the one gite, dont employ anyone and have alwasy had every intention of paying tax on the income. however it IS our only source of income, so it seems to be a problem what to do about health cover - which is how this whole thing started when CPAM told me yesterday that i will not come under them when my cover expires at year end and I need to go to some other agency (she said somethign about independent workers) and they will want a Siret number. I have posted a query in the legal and health forums in the hope of enlightenment.

you are currently the only ray of hope in my dark tunnel!

Maria

[nimportequoi]

My French Accountant said if your earnings from gites surpass 24,000€ you are then obliged to register with the ch de c and you become loueur professionel, paying cotisations and taxe professionelle instead of taxe d'habitation (and social cotisations).

[Miki]

Maria,

As you can see, as some others have been told, Susan has been told a figure that counts, some are told it is the number and some are told simply to "go away" (Seriously)as it is not a "pro trade". This of course goes back to the days when ot was just a sideline for the agricole etc.

There is no address as such, You do not register it, unless you plan to go along the C de Com route, then you will given the title of something similar to "hirer of gites" and thereby register your way of earning a salary.

I can't see one gite being your ONLY source of income ? It would have to a rather large place for that to happen ? Once your health cover runs out and you find you cannot possibly afford health cover under the normal route (work or registering your commerce for instance) then you will have to go back to CPAM and throw yourself at their mercy and ask for them to tell you about CMU. If granted this type of cover, you will pay 8% of your gross global income after a certain reduction (now recently riased to 6965 euros).

[MKT]

Yes Miki, that is exactly what  i was hoping, indeed expecting to do - pay 8% on my global income. it was the mention of paying thousands of euros that got me going.

I will not go the CdC route unless forced as there is no way its worthwhile staying in business. gite is large (sleeps 11) and with pool etc and did well this year. Only other income is small amount of savings & interest - we think(hope) we can survive on the income (no mortgage).

Are they likely to NOT let me pay 8% and what can i do if they refuse me? how do i get them to asses me under this basis?

thankyou again for your continued help

Maria

[Poppy]

Maria look at my post under Legal.

My understanding is that if you are French resident you have to enrol in the French health system.

Jan

[Miki]

As in all cases here in France, a lot will depend on how your CPAM people view your case.

Strictly speaking, they would of course prefer you to be paying in to the system via the normal route. BUT if you cannot afford that route, then, as with many others you will simply have to explain that all to CPAM and, more or less demand that you need health cover and the CMU route is the only way for you to get your required health cover.

Many rules and regulations are tightening up along with many things here, money is short and so, new ways to try and get more money in the coffers are being found, almost daily. Good luck.

Jan, that is exactly what I have said here, the CMU is just another way of a French resident getting the "obligatory" health cover.

[Poppy]

Thanks for that Miki, obligatory is a much better word than my enrol.

In my posting under legal I explained that several years ago we had a Gite and didnt have to register as a business. The income was declared on french tax return less an agreed percentage for running costs. I suggested Marie check this out with local tax office and return to CPAM with info from tax office.

Like you said it depends on local CPAM but hopefully Marie will end up paying correct amount into system and receiving correct amount out.

Jan

[MKT]

Thanks again Mikejan (have answered in legal forum).

Miki, thankyou again too, but i still dont understand (sorry) what they would consider 'the normal route' and why they should want me to pay cpam contributions at a rate of 45% and not 8%. I thought everybody paid at a rate of 8% after the allowance - have i got this wrong? i fill in a tax return too - why arent my contributions assesed off that?

why does it matter to them HOW i earned the money as long as i pay tax and contributions on it at the same rate as everyone else? If i sell up and stick the money in the bank then i would have no income except the interest - so would i then  be expected to pay just the 8%? would i be accepted into the system then?

I understand that CPAm etc are trying to save money etc, and i am trying my best to live on a  shoestring too and i will go and talk to them again, but it was THEM who sent me to go and get the Siret number and started all this so i am scared of what they will say/do next and want to have an idea what my options are, if any.

Thankyou for your patience and sorry if i am missing something vital

Maria

 

[Teamedup]

Sorry MKT you seem to think that these 45% social charges are simply for health care. They aren't, there is a myriad of organisations that want their cut from the 45%.

Even when one works for a company there is a huge list on the pay slip of all the deductions that go to all the different agencies of over 20%. As there is no PAYE income tax is paid separately.

[MKT]

Teamed up, are you saying that everyone pays tax on their income AND an additional 45% of their income in social charges? I understand that employers may well pay this for their staff but I am not an employer, i am merely renting out my house and doing the work myself- tryign to scratch a living.

I shall certianly have to sell up if they want 45% of my €13,000 as well as the tax. i had envisiged paying tax on it and paying further 10% for CMU/healthcare cotisations. We cannot live on €6000 a year.

Why cant i jsut pay tax on the money, make a contribution to the health system (at the same rate as everyone else, presumably dependednt on income). I neither want nor expect any other benefits from the system and am already paying voluntary contributions to the UK pension system.

Maria (getting more worried by the minute)

 

[Poppy]

Maria if I was you I would contact Inland Revenue International in Newcastle UK and obtain written confirmation that E106 cover not available after DEC 2005. Then return to CPAM armed with this and info from tax office that you are a micro enterprise, also supply evidence of last 12 months income. Have tax office told you to declare only a percentage of the Gite income?

I certainly hope it doesnt come to it but if you do sell up and live off the income in France,then the interest earned will be subject to CSG & CRDS about 11%. You should be able to join the french health system paying 8 to 10% but you will probably still need confirmation re E106 expiry.

As previously posted it depends on the local CPAM so I would certainly visit again and thrash it out with them. There may just have been a misunderstanding.

Jan

[Teamedup]

What I was saying and I have just read that other people have mentioned this to you too, is that you seem to think that the 45% is simply for health care. When in fact there is nothing simple about it and this 45% figure goes to many different agencies including the health care people. The most grabbing of these agencies will be the URSSAF.

Employees pay over 20% of their salaries towards these agencies and they then pay their income tax on top of this.

Employers actually pay a futher getting on for 50%, well certainly on my husband's pay slip is it marked as such, for their part of his contributions.

So that means that say someone is earning brut 1500 a month, they will pay around 300 euros as stoppages from their pay to the various agencies, plus their income tax will have to be paid. And their employer will be paying around 700 odd euros a month too to the government.

In fact self employed people are paying far less than companies with employees where as far as I can see the government takes getting on for 70 percent of the brut wage one way or another. 

 

The french system does not favour small businesses and for them to take on staff is very expensive. We have not even discussed insurances and top up health insurance either in all of this.