denbag Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Can anyone help please. First posting but have read the Forum many times, subscribed to the mag in the past and have owned a house in Var since 2001. We have had some work done at our house by a 'friend' and neighbour, who have lived in the village for about 4 years. He and his wife have formed a French business. The man is an 'all rounder' and has always done an acceptable job for us at a reasonable price. However, we have just received an invoice for an amount in excess of 1500 Euros which is at least double what I expected (based on previous jobs etc). The invoice only shows the total amount they want, whereas I thought that the invoice had to show the details of the parts supplied, with their price and the labour rate and number of hours. Am I wrong? I will have to challenge them about it, but would like to be clear as to my 'rights' before I do so. Lots of lessons here about mixing friends and business. Thanks for reading Denbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Did you not get a devis before the job? That is the time to query the price. If not then you may be in trouble, although he ought to be able to substantiate the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denbag Posted November 14, 2007 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Sorry if it sounds naive but we didn't have a relationship (I thought!) where a devis seemed to be necessary. I appreciate that I will have a problem, but I was really ineterested in finding out exactly what he was required to show on his facture. All jobs I have had done by French firms, such as repairing a leak in the pool house have clearly itemised the parts supplied, the rate of labour and the number of hours. Thanks for responding, anyway.Denbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 When we rented out our UK property we used to get invoices from an odd job man via our tardy letting agent saying things like "Attend to garage door £ 38.50". I always used to ask for a breakdown in costs and eventually the odd job man said he wouldn't do any more work at our property as we were picky (original word replaced!).Maybe it's a UK/Brit trait. Why not just approach him and say it was more than you expected based on earlier jobs and could he let you have a cost breakdown. Or has he recently registered his business and now realises that to meet the cotisiations he needs to charge a bit more?I personally don't think he has to give you a detailed breakdown if you didn't have an original devis but if he's got nothing to hide then he won't mind you asking.Try keeping it light;you may both need one another in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Certainly a devis has to break down all the parts and the labour charge(s).Some exceptions I have had were for enduit de projection where it said Xm2 nettoyage haute pression @ XEuros/M2Sous couche YM2 @ Y Euros/M2 etc etc.All the others were broken down as parts (albeit inflated) and labour.I am pretty sure that it is required on the facture also unless perhaps it can say "for works as described in devis1234.I never used to like being asked for a breakdown of parts and labour on quotations that I had given in the UK and feel a little sorry for the French artisans, however human nature being what it is they will mark up the parts as much as they can to make the labour seem more acceptable, and of course try to buy said parts with the maximum discount.Which begs the question why should the customer pay money up front for them to use to buy discounted parts to then resell to the customer at a marked up price?I have just reread your post again, I bet in the past you only dealt with him and he was always fair with you, and I bet that it is now his wife who is responsible for the financial side?If you challenge him he will probably just say "I have no idea, I have nothing to do with the finances now"! His wife of course should be able to justify "their" price to you.I bet that the business is more profitable now, although to be fair it has to be as he is still probably the only fee earner and now has overheads like cotisations and his wife to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 From a legal point of view an Artisan should have a signed estimate for any work he is doing. I'm sure he'll be able to provide a more detailed bill. He was probably just saving himself a bit of time as you are a friend.He also needs to show his Siret no. and TVA intracomm. reg. or the appropriate exclusion clause if he is a micro entreprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Nobody is compelled to give estimates, invoices, receipts etc but it is in their own interests to do so. Firstly, in case of disputes it needs to be made absolutely clear what was requested, carried out and paid for. Try claiming on a tradesman's insurance without full paperwork - you won't get very far (which may be why certain tradesmen don't willingly give full invoices). And it is also necessary to have full, receipted, invoices if you want to offset costs against any tax liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesFlamands Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 [quote user="Will"]Nobody is compelled to give estimates, invoices, receipts etc [/quote]AFAIK. If the work is more than 150 Euros?? we are legally obliged to have a signed estimate/contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I am sure you are right Charles, but as with so many 'legal obligations' how could it ever be enforced? I totally agree with your original point that without detailed paperwork how can anything be decided - by either party - in a dispute?Maybe I should have said that if you accept a job done without an estimate and then accept a short invoice then you can't really enforce things at a later date. Although it's in everybody's interests to do things properly, for various reasons people often take short cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeb Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Yes, we've done work for friends and neighbours in the past and the relationship (for us) is always awkward. We usually give a heavily discounted day rate (they are not usually long jobs) and ask them to buy the materials, but they always know how long, and therefore how much, they are going to have to pay. (Obviously for some close friends we just work on a very loose bartering system!!)Denbag, I suggest you just have a chat with your friend and ask for a breakdown, and in future, ask for a written estimate first. Maybe in the past he hasn't declared the work so charged you less than the going rate making this recent bill seem very high. Don't forget that artisans (or indeed any self employed business in France) have huge cotisations to find so job rates can seem very high to those you have no knowledge of this. It really is a killer!Also, I really object to the sexist comment one of the other posters made, even if it was in jest, it was totally unecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denbag Posted November 16, 2007 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 Thanks for your reply (and the others). I have not tackled him about the invoice yet. My initial reaction was that it was a complete rip off, based on the other work he has done over the last 6 years (including exactly the same job at our previous house in the same village). It is often best to sit back and take a more balanced view of things after the initial shock of receiving the invoice, rather than responding immediately and falling out. As we are neighbours in the same village, we have to get along.I think you have hit the nail on the head, in that previous jobs were always for cash, but this one is going through his business (which he formed probably 18 months ago). From what you all tell me, there are lots of costs involved with running a business in France. I never intended doing anything other than paying him in full, and that is what I shall now do. If he does any future work for us I will now, of course insist on un devis. Thanks again, Denbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 [quote user="zeb"] Also, I really object to the sexist comment one of the other posters made, even if it was in jest, it was totally unecessary.[/quote]OK I put my hands up, I guess the sexist comment was mine so I apologise.Its just that it has happened to me several times in the past in business with people (male) that I had always enjoyed a long and mutual relationship with based on trust, I never hassled them for prices unless it was something out of the ordinary and never got any nasty surprises when the invoices came.It changed dramatically in each case when the person got their partner involved in the business and whenever I queried the amount they were genuinely embarrassed and every time gave me the aforementioned quotation verbatim, trying to follow i up with their partner was usually met with suspicion and a total unwillingless to negotiate. Good luck to them I say, it may have been the end of our particular mutual trust but I am sure that they were overall more profitable by involving their partners, after all not all clients were as understanding as I who was happy to pay more than the agreed price when the particular circumstances dictated.I guess I should not have used gender and said partner instead of wife and hope that you accept the apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgina Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 If you want an honest answer, my bet is that he has decided that he is going it straight with you and does not want any more work, hence the full monty. I would pay up and put it down to experience, if you start picking, you are going to fall out big time, is it really worth it. Just pay up, and don't ask him again. You must know that you should have had a devis first, there is enough information about this. So put it down to experience.Georg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanht Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 If he is registered you can go to the Chambre d'Artisans. They are there to help in disputes (as well as other more joyful things of course!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="J.R."][quote user="zeb"] Also, I really object to the sexist comment one of the other posters made, even if it was in jest, it was totally unecessary.[/quote]OK I put my hands up, I guess the sexist comment was mine so I apologise.Its just that it has happened to me several times in the past in business with people (male) that I had always enjoyed a long and mutual relationship with based on trust, I never hassled them for prices unless it was something out of the ordinary and never got any nasty surprises when the invoices came.It changed dramatically in each case when the person got their partner involved in the business and whenever I queried the amount they were genuinely embarrassed and every time gave me the aforementioned quotation verbatim, trying to follow i up with their partner was usually met with suspicion and a total unwillingless to negotiate. Good luck to them I say, it may have been the end of our particular mutual trust but I am sure that they were overall more profitable by involving their partners, after all not all clients were as understanding as I who was happy to pay more than the agreed price when the particular circumstances dictated.I guess I should not have used gender and said partner instead of wife and hope that you accept the apology.[/quote]I dont think your comment was sexist at all. Close to the truth in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="jeanht"]If he is registered you can go to the Chambre d'Artisans. They are there to help in disputes (as well as other more joyful things of course!).[/quote]If you mean the Chambre de Metiers, then no they are not. They are a registration and training body for Artisans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Goodness Wooly, This tale reminds me of when I discovered that a client of ours regularly lent on my OHs good nature, to either peg the price or reduce it - I volunteered to take the client to the local Waitrose with me and see if could persuade them to peg or reduce their prices too.Needless to say we kept the client and he paid the going rate.......[;-)]IMHO Its a big mistake to diss the wife because they look after the figure work...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Its a big mistake to diss the wife because they look after the figure work...... Ahhhh the old double entendres are the best!...teary eyed in Blighty..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Bless you my lovely RH, I hope I wasnt dissing 'er indoors. In my experience she is the one who holds the enterprise together. I rather felt that the earlier post about it being sexist was a bit silly to be honest.Talking of sex, how is your knee by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 The knee is improving, but slowly ! There isn't much thats sexy about a support bandage :)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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