Concrete evidence?

[caramac]

Quote from "The Story so far":

FRENCH RESIDENCY

After 5 years permanent, uninterrupted residence, you can apply for a "titre de sejour",  which gives you the same healthcare rights as a French citizen in a similar position so re-entry to the CMU is possible.  We now have concrete evidence to back this up.

I didn't want to clutter up the above thread so am asking here - what is the

"concrete evidence" and does it refer specifically to the CMU?

[cooperlola]

See

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_229/l_22920040629en00350048.pdf Article 16.

and the French law here

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/imagesJOE/2006/0725/joe_20060725_0170_0001.pdf

CHAPITRE II
« Droit au séjour permanent
« Art. L. 122-1. − Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l’ordre public, le ressortissant visé à
l’article L. 121-1 qui a résidé de manière légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes
acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l’ensemble du territoire français.
« Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l’ordre public, le membre de sa famille mentionné à
l’article L. 121-3 acquiert également un droit au séjour permanent sur l’ensemble du territoire français à
condition qu’il ait résidé en France de manière légale et ininterrompue avec le ressortissant visé à
l’article L. 121-1 pendant les cinq années précédentes. Une carte de séjour d’une durée de validité de dix ans
renouvelable de plein droit lui est délivrée.

However it should be stressed that it will only give you the same rights as a French citizen in the same position, so if the rules for French inactifs change, they will for all EU nationals too.

[Boiling a frog]

I am not being pedantic but the law only says you have the right to stay in France after 5 years of legal and continuous residence without having to fulfil the conditions laid down

ie

Health cover

Adequate funds not to be a burden on the social security system.

Nowhere does it say  ""and you will have the right to health cover under CMU""

The CPAM english speaking helpline yesterday Friday 12th October stated that the rules as far as they were concerned were that unless in receipt of an E106 or E121 everyone had to take out private medical assurance.There were no rules about after 5 years or anything else. That is not to say that things will change  

[cooperlola]

Article 16

Article 16

General rule for Union citizens and their family members

1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous

period of five years in the host Member State shall have the

right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be

subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

2. Paragraph 1 shall apply also to family members who are

not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with

the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous

period of five years.

3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary

absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by

absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service,

or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months

for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious

illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another

Member State or a third country.

4. Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be

lost only through absence from the host"

 

my underlining as this is part of Chapter 3

"(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family

members not to become a burden on the social assistance

system of the host Member State during their period of

residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover

in the host Member State; or"

Ergo - after 5 years, the sufficient resources specification can no longer apply.

[Helen]

There's lots of  supporting evidence and  as Cooperlola shows the law seems to be fairly clear with permanent residence granting similar rights as to a French citizen.. There has been sadly no official confirmation from the French.

The British Embassy website says:

All inactive EU citizens under retirement age (ie those already resident in France and those planning to move in future) who are not entitled to healthcare reimbursement (through the E106 or E109 forms), will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they reach UK retirement age (and therefore qualify for entitlement to the E121 form), or until they qualify as a French resident (which is after 5 years of regular, uninterrupted residence).

Unfortunately they've got things wrong before but I have read from two sources ( an Email from the DWP quoted somewhere and from the Telegraph article that they had checked the wording with the French authorities)

From the Telegraph article:

 Stephanie Gaillard, head of communication for social security, said the French health ministry was aware of the UK statement. She told me: "We were fully informed and worked together on this. They are right to say that people who have been in the country for five years qualify as French resident."

A European MEP Caroline Lucas also wrote:

Citizens residing in another member state for less than three months can be granted social assistance, which includes health care, at the discretion of the host member state. Once citizens have resided in France long enough to be granted permanent status (5 years uninterrupted residency) any conditions are dropped, because the legislation provides for equal treatment with nationals ie the ability to access health care in the same way as French citizens.

If people are deemed to be permanent residences (no conditions to be legal) they must be entitled to belong to the CMU which  according to the Amelie fr website

Créée en 2000, la Couverture maladie universelle (C.M.U.) de base facilite l’accès aux soins et le remboursement des prestations et médicaments à toute personne résidant en France et qui n’est pas déjà couverte par un autre régime obligatoire d’Assurance Maladie. Elle concerne aussi bien les personnes sans ressources que celles disposant de revenus importants.

People are entitled to join if they have no other assurance maladie, (which are the grounds for exclusion of those who have been here for less than five years )

De nationalité française ou étrangère, avec ou sans domicile fixe, si vous résidez en France depuis plus de trois mois de manière régulière et n’êtes pas déjà couvert par un régime de Sécurité sociale, vous pouvez demander à bénéficier de la C.M.U. de base.

Conditions de résidence stable et régulière

Pour bénéficier de la C.M.U. de base, vous devez résider en France (métropolitaine ou département d'outre-mer) de façon stable, c'est-à-dire de manière ininterrompue depuis plus de trois mois.

Vous pouvez justifier de votre résidence stable de plus de trois mois

 These people cannot join but I don't think it concerns any of us.

rattaché à un régime spécifique (étudiants, ministres des cultes, artistes auteurs, détenus...) ;

membre du personnel diplomatique et consulaire en poste en France, fonctionnaire d'un État étranger et personne assimilée, ainsi que les membres de votre famille qui vous accompagnent ;

venu en France pour suivre un traitement médical ou une cure ;

agent retraité d'une organisation internationale non titulaire d'une pension française, ainsi que les membres de votre famille ;

ressortissant de nationalité étrangère titulaire d'une carte de séjour « retraité » ;

français titulaire d'une pension de source française et résidant à l'étranger en dehors de l'E.E.E. ;

français et ressortissant de l'E.E.E., titulaire d'une pension de retraite de source française et résidant à l'étranger dans l'E.E.E. ;

français et ressortissant de l'E.E.E. pluri-pensionné, bénéficiant d'une pension de source française et d'une pension d'un pays de l'E.E.E. qui n'est pas votre pays de résidence ;

français expatrié adhérant à la Caisse des Français de l'étranger (C.F.E.).

(I checked out the Carte de Sejour retraite and that seems to be  a very specific card which concerns a foreigner with a French pension who wants to live in France for a period)

Its helped my worries writing that out!

Another interesting article on the legality of it all is at http://www.skovgaard-europe.com/CMU.htm

[Boiling a frog]

Nowhere does it say that people will then after 5 years be entitled to health care via CMU.

They will only have the right of residence without having to comply with the conditions laid down in Chapter 3.

Even the Briish Embassy statement is vague

It says

 

Access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries

We have held further discussions with the French Health Ministry and have established that the French Government has now changed its position regarding access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries already residing in France.

According to the French Government's published statement (http://www.securite-sociale.fr) the position is:

• All inactive EU citizens already accessing CMU healthcare coverage will continue to do so until 31 March 2008 after which they will be required to have their own personal medical insurance, unless their inactive status changes in the meantime.

• All inactive EU citizens under retirement age (ie those already resident in France and those planning to move in future) who are not entitled to healthcare reimbursement (through the E106 or E109 forms), will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they reach UK retirement age (and therefore qualify for entitlement to the E121 form), or until they qualify as a French resident (which is after 5 years of regular, uninterrupted residence).

• People already over retirement age who are holders of an E121 which is registered with the French authorities will remain unaffected.

 One can read this statement two ways

All inactive EU citizens under retirement age who are not entitled to healthcare via E106 or E109 will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they qualify as a French resident after 5 years of regular uninterupted residence and will thereafter be entitled to health care via the CMU (my words in red)

or

All inactive EU citizens under retirement age who are not entitled to healthcare via E106 or E109 will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they qualify as a French resident after five years of regular uninterupted residence after which they will no longer be required to have their own personal medical insurance as they will have aquired the right to permenant residence in France

Why, if it is certain and beyond doubt that the first senario will apply, does the Embassy statement not say so.

And why do CPAM and the Social security website not say so,in fact CPAM english speaking helpline yesterday told me that there were no exeptions to the requirement to obtain private medical assurance if one did not have cover via E106,E109 or E121,it did not matter how long one had been in France.

I hope the first senario applies as I will qualify having been in France since 2002 with a titre de sejour to prove it  but I have sought clarification from CPAM,Briish Embassy,DPW Newcastle and my MEP and MP but have not had any confirmation as yet that this senario no 1  applies infact the exact opposite from CPAM

 .

 

[Helen]

Boiling a Frog I agree its still not written out clearly, however the French have not(as yet) changed the requirements for joining the CMU. This would require another law change and a fundamental change in philosophy since it gives assurance universelle  and is much vaunted, even those who are not legally resident are entitled (with maximum income requirements) to the AME. The Social Charter of the EU  also gives rights to legal citizens to health care.

It has been pointed out on another Forum that this  recent interpretation of the EU law gives less rights to EU citizens than people from the US, a number of whom have carte de sejours granted on resources and who have subsequently been allowed to join the CMU on grounds of legal residence. The EU law does not concern them. This in itself could form the basis of a legal challenge.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Boiling_a_frog"]

Nowhere does it say that people will then after 5

years be entitled to health care via CMU.

They will only have the right of residence without

having to comply with the conditions laid down in Chapter 3.

.....

[/quote]

Unsure what bits of the regs. are quoted above in

this and other threads but somewhere in these posts there is a bit or

a link to something official that says that once you get permanent

residence (after the 5 year thing) you have the same rights as a

French citizen. If its available to a French citizen in the same

position it is available to you. It is a universal EU rule - i.e.

individual countries are not allowed to "opt out".

Maybe somebody more familiar with these threads

and links can find or knows the link/place where this is stated. I

remember seeing a link to a web site with a scanned letter that said

it (from some high EU official to somebody)

As others point out above, this gives you the same

rights as a French citizen. You get the CMU thing as that is

available to a French citizen in the situations being discussed.

However, given Sarkozy's hate of the early retired (of any

nationality), he may respond by applying the same CMU for "inactifs"

rule to French citizens as well (and blame the Brits/EU).

I think the reason it is still not recognised by

CPAM is that the fact that an EU regulation is not working in favour

of and supporting the French government has come as a bit of a shock

to their systems. Normally EU regs work in favour of the French gov.

Ian

[cooperlola]

My quotes above are lifted direct from EU directives (the link is in my first post).

I think you might be referring to the response from Caroline Lucas, MEP

"Directive 2004/38/EC, which the French authorities are citing as
justification for the proposed changes, is concerned with 'the right of
citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely
within the territory of the Member States'. It states very clearly that EU
citizens have the right of residence in another member state for a period of
longer than three months, as long as they have sufficient resources not to
become a burden on the host member state and have comprehensive sickness
insurance cover in the those member state.
Citizens residing in another member state for less than three months can be
granted social assistance, which includes health care, at the discretion of
the host member state. Once citizens have resided in France long enough to
be granted permanent status (5 years uninterrupted residency) any conditions
are dropped, because the legislation provides for equal treatment with
nationals ie the ability to access health care in the same way as French
citizens."

Your last para says it all, Ian!