From E106 to spouse’s E121

[Phil & Pat]

We are about to contact The Pension Service (Newcastle) with a request to add me to my wife’s E121 as a dependant beneficiary when my own E106 expires on 5th Jan 2008.  I contacted them in October and was told that my wife should call in December to make the request.

I would appreciate advice from anyone who has tried this.

Some questions come to mind;

• Is ‘dependant beneficiary’ the correct term?  Box 5 on the E121 form refers to “Member of the family of the pensioner”.
• Do I have to request an extension to my E106 (and be refused) first?
• Will they add my name on request, or will I have to provide some sort of justification?
• If my name is added to my wife’s E121, will this automatically make me eligible for CMU, or is eligibility at the discretion of the local CPAM (Calvados, 14)?  
• If it’s discretionary, does anyone know the position of the Calvados CPAM on this point?

Regards,

Phil.

(glad to be married to an older woman…[8-|])

[cooperlola]

The wording on the document is something to the effect of "includes members of the holder's family living with and dependent upon..."

Yes, you need an E106 termination letter, as well as the E121 for your o/h, with the box carrying the discription above, ticked.

It does not carry a name, only an indication (as above) that dependents are included.

I have yet to come across anybody whose CPAM has refused "piggy-backing" where it is clearly indicated on the form that dependents are included, as above.

[Tony F Dordogne]

What Deb says is correct at the moment but French early retired chums are telling me that dependant is being re-examined by the French government and at some stage in the future, they may wish to see the level of dependancy - so if you're not dependant financially it may, at some indeterminate stage in the future - effect your links through the E121.

The idea is to be married to a RICH older woman!

[cooperlola]

So sort it pronto then, eh Tony?

[Sunday Driver]

The French government may well be re-examining the criteria for dependency in terms of it's own citizens, but in the case of the E121, it's purely a matter for the issuing Member State.

 

[cooperlola]

Certainly as it constitutes an agreement by the originating member state to cover the costs on a per capita basis, that seems logical, S/D.  However..[Www]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The French government may well be re-examining the criteria for dependency in terms of it's own citizens, but in the case of the E121, it's purely a matter for the issuing Member State.

[/quote] 

I think we have been down this road before, the French do have a right to refuse to accept dependency on an E121 from the UK,  it is their health system after all, although they rarely do.  The CPAM at Montauban has refused piggy backs in the past where the form holder was clearly the dependent and not the other way round, may be the tax forms lodged in the past showed the dependent as the main earner, I don't know.  They have also refused where there was a big age difference,  the man claiming to be dependent was much younger than his pensioner wife.

[Chris]

Hi Pat and Phil,

My wife was 60 earlier this month.  I completed the pension claim form and request for E121.  All went OK and handed in to CPAM. But after reading a post earlier here, I could not remember seeing the the dependancy box to tick- it does take some finding and is easily missed.  I rang UK and asked them if they could confirm that I was a dependent - no I was not.  They sent replacement forms, I ticked the box and took them to CPAM and explained that there had been an error and that these were replacement forms, and the first ones should be cancelled.  I expected all sorts of complications because of that ie I had no confidence that they could cope with the 2 lots of almost identical forms in their system!

I need not have worried - in due course, we received letters from URSSAF abnd CPAM cancelling my affiliation to the CPAM ( slightly worrying at the time with all the changes going on!!).  But I was reassured, as they were annotated due to coming under wife's affiliation.  We have not long received a new attestation with new security number and just this week received a request for photos for the new cartes vitales.

Therefore, it seems that at least here the E121 works for the 'younger' husband.  I am only sorry that others are not getting out of the poo as easily, and I feel so lucky to be in the right situation at the right time. 

Hope that helps, Phil and Pat

[Phil & Pat]

A couple of interesting points on the dependancy issue there, I think the answer will be to wait and see what happens when we present the new E121 to CPAM.

The very helpful lady at DWP will be sending me an E106 'refusal of extension' letter plus a new E121 for my wife with me named as a family member.

The form only talks about 'The pensioner' and 'Member of the family of the pensioner' and does not mention dependancy anywhere I can find.  The part of the E121 which the CPAM sends back to Newcastle contains the wording "The costs of these benefits should be borne by you;..."

(my emphasis), so in that case why should the french authorities care

who is dependant on whom (in our case we are interdependant, if that

matters).

Our last Avis d'Impot sur Revenue was adressed to M Et Mme... and does not differentiate between  my income, my wife's income and our joint income, so  it will be interesting to see how they decide dependancy.

If anyone is interested I will be happy to let you all know the outcome.

Phil.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The French government may well be re-examining the criteria for dependency in terms of it's own citizens, but in the case of the E121, it's purely a matter for the issuing Member State.

[/quote] 

I think we have been down this road before, the French do have a right to refuse to accept dependency on an E121 from the UK,  it is their health system after all, although they rarely do.  The CPAM at Montauban has refused piggy backs in the past where the form holder was clearly the dependent and not the other way round, may be the tax forms lodged in the past showed the dependent as the main earner, I don't know.  They have also refused where there was a big age difference,  the man claiming to be dependent was much younger than his pensioner wife.

[/quote]

 

You are quite correct in stating that France has a right to refuse to accept a family member piggy backing on a pensioners E121

See a sample E121

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/consleg/1998/D/01998D0443-20060401-en.pdf

 

However they have to give a reason for refusal and the DPW when questioned said that they have never known a husband /wife being refused cover.

They did say that what often happens is that the pensioner forgets to tell them or is unaware of the entitlement of the husband /wife to piggyback so that no mention is made at section 5 of the E121 of the family member.They have also had instances of people when they receive the E121 of writing in themselves the family member at Section 5 and of course when the form ends up back at the DPW they in turn inform the French authorities that the person named at section 5 is not entitled.  

 

[Sunday Driver]

Under Art 28(1)(a) of EU directive 1408/71, a pensioner who has entitlement to benefits under the legislation of one Member State is entitled to the same benefits in the Member State of residence, the costs of which shall be borne by the competent institution of the original member state.  The same conditions apply to members of the family of the beneficiary.

The DWP is the competent institution and the E121 provides confirmation of the holder's (and where relevant, his family members') entitlement to healthcare and that the costs will be met under the arrangements set out in 1408/71. There is no legal basis for the French authorities to refuse to accept it.

As the Frog says, these so called instances of refusal are probably down to failure on the part of the E121 holder to arrange for their dependents to be included on the form.

 

[Brando]

We have been living permanently in France since November 2001. Neither my wife nor myself have had a Form E-106 or previously had a Form E-121.

My wife reached the UK pension age of 60 in April 2005 at which time I was 61. After completing her pension claim form she then received 2 copies of her E-121 which stated that she was now claiming old-age pension and that the UK government would be responsible for covering her health care costs while she was living in France and until such time as the E-121 was cancelled. There was no entry at Item 5. Member of the family of the pensioner.

An accompanying letter from The Pension Service in Newcastle included the following sentence:-

'If you need another Form E-121 for any other members of your family living with you, who may need Medical Benefit cover, please      ask the French authority to send us Form E-107 application for a certificate of entitlement to benefit in kind.'

We took the Forms E-121 to our CPAM office. The CPAM officer knew exactly what was required. She dealt with the E-121 forms, took an E-107 form from her filing cabinet and completed this form with my details which she said would be forwarded to Newcastle.

She then took away our existing Cartes Vitales which had been in my name, with my wife as dependent, giving us attestations with new numbers. She joked that my wife was now the principle card holder and I was to be her dependent. (How true in many ways!).

The new Cartes Vitales were issued and received by us with a minimum delay.

It would seem, therefore, that it is up to the French CPAM to make application for the UK pensioner's dependent to receive medical benefit in kind. They complete the E-107 and send it to Newcastle. In our case they were totally aware of the procedure and extremely efficient.

I hope this helps others in similar situations to ourselves.

Brando

 

[Will]

Our last Avis d'Impot sur Revenue was adressed to M Et Mme... and does not differentiate between  my income, my wife's income and our joint income, so  it will be interesting to see how they decide dependancy.

That's normal in France, couples are taxed jointly, rather than as individuals as in Britain. Neither is it normally possible to elect to be taxed individually, as you could when couples were jointly taxed in Britain. Unfortunately (for you) your individual circumstances are examined when it comes to health and social security. That is why husbands who have their own pension income (or who work) but are below state retirement age will not normally be included as dependents on a wife's E121 - they aren't dependents. Of course, it is up to Newcastle to include them (or not) in the first place but the French still have the option to refuse cover under these circumstances if they feel it should not be granted.

The E107 mentioned by Brando is the 'official' way to get dependents added to E121 cover . Its official title is something like 'Application for a Certificate of Entitlement to Benefits' and it isn't necessarily only tied to the E121, it can be used if, for example, you need treatment on a visit to another country and have no EHIC. Like the E106, different countries may apply it in different ways - I don't think the Irish, for example, regard it in the same way as the British (just like the E106) - that's not really relevant except for the fact that there are several 'expat' websites that list the Irish, rather than the British, version of how the forms are used, even though they are targeted at British emigrants (mainly in Spain). So treat information from Internet sources with care.