Health care & Vocationally Retired U.65

[jacquie]

Are there any Retired Police officers out there under the age of 65 who believe that they should not have to pay 8% of their Police pensions to the CMU since their E106s have expired. The point being we did not CHOOSE to retire but were contracted to 30 years service OR 55 years of age. UK legislation lumps all expats under 65 in the same boat which clearly we are not! The UK GOVT. recognises this fact by exempting us from NI contributions should you remain in the UK; this is  duly reflected in a modified UK State Pension  you receive at 65. The Govt recognises it is precisely the nature of this job that  allows you to retire before 65. I believe it is discriminatory not to allow us the same entitlement as those in receipt of E121s to which the UK pay the French a levy. We are EU citizens living in an EU country & should not be 'dumped' into a  category that includes people under 65 who do no want to work or chose to retire.  Bob

[AnOther]

You did however CHOOSE to come to France though and therefore have to live by the French rules. Do you consider that just because you were a policeman in another country that you should be excepted from that ?

I fail to see the point of your post as you have zero chance of changing it from either the UK or the French side.

[dragonrouge]

Dear Jacquie

I am in the law but on the opposite side. I number amongst my friends a CC an ex ACC someone in the SB et al. So I do know the system.

But I say to you my pension is not guaranteed unlike the Police Pension which is continued to be paid through Council Tax and indeed subject to RPI Your pension is never to go down the drain mine is.

I say this as a lawyer but one who will never do criminal work for it does not pay.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="jacquie"] We are EU citizens living in an EU country & should not be 'dumped' into a  category that includes people under 65 who do no want to work or chose to retire.  Bob[/quote]

I'm sorry jacquie but it seems you either are annoyed at not being able to find a job in civvy street or you decided not to. If the latter then you play by the rules of the country where you live or would like to live.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="jacquie"]I believe it is discriminatory not to allow us the same entitlement as those in receipt of E121s to which the UK pay the French a levy. We are EU citizens living in an EU country & should not be 'dumped' into a  category that includes people under 65 who do no want to work or chose to retire.  Bob[/quote]

If you think that the case is discriminatory, I think you need to speak to your legal people in the UK because the only way you can change it is through Europe I think or through a case at the Equalities Commission and I think your chances with either are slim to nil.

I hate to be picky but you also chose to retire early because you knew when you joined the job what the circumstances of your retirement would be or if the rules were changed whilst you were in the service, you could have left and taken work that meant you would be covered if you moved to Europe.

I know several retired police officers near me - and I was in the police service also tho pleased to say left early and went on to do other things - and all of them are happy with their index linked pensions.

To be honest, taking the tone you have in the quote isn't going to get you much help or sympathy here - you chose a job which allowed early retirement therefore you chose to retire early and chose to live in France with all that comes with it - you want to change the law, I'm sure that there will be a lawyer somewhere happy to take your money from you.

[Sunday Driver]

Many organisations offer 'redundancy packages' including an early retirement pension to long serving employees in order to stimulate the career development of their more junior colleagues.  These 'retirees' don't generally have much choice in the matter and they don't qualify for any special entitlement to an E121.

At least with police officers, retirement occurs at an age when obtaining another job isn't as difficult as it would be for someone older who has been 'let go'.....  

 

 

[Scooby]

With a police pension you can probably afford the cotisations...  As has already been said - you're in France now not the UK.

By comparison my sister works in care doing a sixty hour week on minimum wage.  (That's £5.80 an hour.) Her patients are brain injured and can be violent - very violent.  She has been attacked twice in the last two years and was off work with her injuries for two months.  She is hourly paid and so received no sick pay.  She had to remortgage her (modest terraced) house to survive.  Her job is difficult and mauling, but despite having health issues she will have to work until she is 68 - at which point she will be entitled to the basic state pension. 

So stop whinging and whining and consider yourself damn lucky.....

[parsnips]

Hi,

     As a retired fire officer(in -service injury) I was in the same situation( now over 65), but, as so many have said, I think myself lucky to have had  such a reliable and generous pension that I had to contribute to the CMU.  When we first arrived in France there was no CMU and we had to have full private insurance--if you think paying for the CMU is onerous, try paying for full cover!

    What I do find unjust is that since G. Brown effectively abolished the widow's pension in 2001, my wife, should I die before she is 65 , will ,after 1 year only of "bereavement benefit", not only receive no further benefits (till age 65) , but will also not be entitled to an E121 and will have to restart payment to CMU. 

[Will]

The whole point of E forms and reciprocal health care arrangements - which continue after the E form expires and are part of European legislation - is that they entitle one to the same level of benefits, on the same contributory terms, as any other resident of the country to which you move. They do not continue the same benefits as residents of the country you have left. In choosing, as an EU citizen, to move to France you have effectively accepted these terms, so as an inactif you contribute your 8% just as any French inactif would.

[dexter]

I`m confused,  as a retired police officer myself who is intending to move to France, I have been informed by HMRC that I do not qualify for an E106 and must therefore obtain PHI upon my move.

As I am well under 65, and as I understand it, I will have to maintain this cover for 5 years until I become eligible to enter the French health system. (covered in a previous post)

That being the case, will I also have to contribute to CMU as well?  The quote for my PHI was more than 8% of my pension and I`m happy to pay in order to live where I want to.

Dexter

[Will]

The law changed last year. In simplified terms, those inactifs under state retirement age who were legally in France as of November 2007 with health cover through CMU or E106 could remain in the health system. Others who arrived after that date have to have private health assurance until they qualify for CMU affiliation through five years residence.

[dexter]

Thanks for that Will, I thought/hoped that was the case.

Dexter

[annie]

My OH and I are moving to France next year. We will both have pensions as retired Police officers and know we have to pay into the French system. We choose to come and appreciate what has been said. Equally, I understand why Bob is so frustrated. We will always have to pay tax in the UK on our pensions but will receive nothing in return. Friends have elected to pay the tax on their (private) pensions in France to allow them basic cover under CMU. We would choose to do this but are not allowed and have to continue to pay into a system where we are to recieve nothing in return. Yes, it is our choice to move to France and we want to contribute to the French system. I appreciate some people may think service employees are over paid and the pension scheme is a gift. There are always some who do not deserve their pay, in any organisation. I will however say this, we have worked in the sewers of the land for much of our service, dealing with the stuff of nightmares. My OH in particular (as others I know) deserves every penny of the pension he paid 11% of his wages into every month of his service. For those years we paid into a system and agreeably so. Now we wish to move to a different system, and contribute, as we should, to that system. One must ignore the title of the job and look at the situation.     

[AnOther]

[quote user="annies gone sailing"]Friends have elected to pay the tax on their (private) pensions in France to allow them basic cover under CMU.[/quote]I'm sorry but I think someone has got this completely muddled. Paying tax on income, be it from a private pension or otherwise, is not a ticket into health care, that can only be by virtue of an E form, 5 years legal residence, or officially working, or having worked, in France.

Also you don't elect where to pay tax. Income from a private pension would be libel to tax in France but you can apply to have it paid tax free in UK. That is not the same a 'electing' to pay it in one coutry or the other.

[quote user="annies gone sailing"]One must ignore the title of the job and look at the

situation.[/quote]I thought that is what we had. The situation is after any E form has expired inactifs must pay for private health care and it matters not one jot what their job was or why they are retired early.[blink]

[cooperlola]

Well, Annie, I am on your side, but let's not kid ourselves - it is France which has decided to interpret EU law in such a way that inactive, pre-state-retirement-age newcomers cannot contribute or benefit from the local health system during such time as any E-form they have has expired, and their reaching UK state retirement age and /or having lived here for 5 years.  It was neither a European decision, nor a British one.  When I was working on this during the introduction of the new rules, many leftie French MPs and MEPs agreed with you and thought this shouldn't be happening, but it's part of the price one pays for moving countries - you accept local rules and cannot vote to change them unless, again after 5 years, you seek citizenship of your adopted country.

Post amended - see below.

[Will]

Annie, if your friends were to take up residence in France now, with no E form, they would not be entitled to join the French health system either, until they had been in France for 5 years (or started working, or reached UK state retirement age). This being regardless of the fact that they pay tax in France and you don't. That's the crux of the 2007/8 health reforms by that nice Mr Sarkozy, that Cooperlola and her colleagues fought so hard to get overturned and clarified. The fact that you pay tax in different countries is a quirk of the double taxation agreement, and has no bearing on health provision.

[annie]

They have us over a proverbial then. I know it is a matter of residency in the UK, not tax but it doesn't sit well. However, having said all that, we still want the life in France and so have to accept the system. I am doing my best to make sure we don't fall foul of the system, pay what we must pay etc. Rather more in depth than I first thought though!!!!!! I know we are entitled to E106 for up to 2 1/2 years and can pay 8% of our household income after 5 years for CMU but what is the 7.1% social charge for and when do we start paying that? Is that just a household tax not connected to CMU?

I'm blonde when the need arises.

 

[Will]

The so-called 'social charge' is a French government levy on most income or gain, and although all French residents are liable to pay it it brings no benefits. Properly known as CSG/CRDS/PS (the three taxes that comprise the charge) it was introduced to help pay off the French national debt and provide a fund to protect against the effects of future overspending by the health service. So although you have to pay it (not always on pensions arising from wholly outside France, but always on other income such as interest payments) you get nothing in return. That theme is getting rather familiar in this discussion...

See here for a complete explanation.

[dexter]

Annie, you say you and your other half are moving to France next year, I take it then that one or both of you are still in the job. I retired from GMP two years ago last week but haven't been able to sell my house to date (thought I had a few weeks ago but the b###ers pulled out last Friday out of the blue), and that being the case I`ve not paid NI since I finished so I`m not entitled to an E106.

If you`ve both finished then it would be worth contacting Newcastle HMRC to find out about your eligibility for an E106.  I go with your philosophy as well about accepting things as they will have to be in order to live where you want to and it sticks in my throat as well to pay tax in the UK and get nothing for it but as the saying goes "If you can't take a joke then you shouldn't be in the job!"

Good luck

Dexter     

[AnOther]

By all means contact HMRC, there may be some wrinkles to be exploited, but AFAIK the rules for eligibility an E106 are pretty clear and it's based on your NI record for the previous 2 full tax years, so the clock starts ticking effectively form the moment you cease paying NI.

If for instance you stopped working in April 2010 and applied for an E106 straight away then it would only run to Jan 2012. If you delayed applying until past the middle of the year then you could get it for 2.5 years which would take you to Jan 2013 after which you would have to take out private insurance.

I'd perhaps investigate moving but one of you staying on for another 2.5 years or so, even part time, even in another job, anything so long as you pay class 1 NI, then time your retirement to squeeze that 2.5 years out of the E106 after which you hit the magic 5 years milestone and you're home and dry.

Not what you planned I'm sure but a possible option all the same. I guess it depends on how badly you want to move to France and if you are prepared (or able) to take out private insurance.

Dexter could do the same of course.

[Chancer]

[quote user="AnOther"] then time your retirement to squeeze that 2.5 years out of the E106 after which you hit the magic 5 years milestone and you're home and dry.

[/quote]

At this point the 5 year milestone is more theoretical than magic, it remains to be seen whether the 5 years is going to be enforced or on the other hand ignored.

I woudn't count the chickens until some people are actually home and dry

[cooperlola]

Whilst I understand Chancer's caution, the "5 year rule" is European law and hence a lot more difficult for the French government to get round.  But I agree, we won't know until November 2012.  However, it is true to say that those whose E106s ran out in January who wre here before the cut-off date, were accepted into CMU (there may have been some problems, but none we heard of which did not get resolved) so the new rules do appear thus far to be being adhered to.

[Sunday Driver]

The five year rule is currently enshrined in French law as well as EU law, so there is no legal basis for anyone to be refused access to state healthcare insurance once they have been legally resident here for five years.

Any notion that the five year period is 'more theoretical than magic' and that the CPAMs are going to ignore the law is pure fantasy.  A couple of years ago when the law was changed to say no more CMU for non-working expats, they followed the rules and began the process of throwing everyone out.  When the law changed back to allow CMU, they reversed the process and began accepting people's CMU applications.

 

[annie]

Thank you for the postings here. There are some things I hadn't considered.

Yes Dexter, I am retired (early) and OH has just less than 12 months to do. I plan to move out in April to get the ball rolling with internet, garden, site clearing etc etc. OH will then come over Sept 2010. Looking at the above we will qualify under E106 for cover as he has paid NI for the term. I suppose registering asap when I get there is the way forward, with cover under OH as a worker in the UK, until Sept. I will just have to hope I can find a top up which isn't going to leave me stoney. ( Can I hear you long term ex pats sniggering here????)

I do understand that NHS in UK is based solely on residency not tax payments.

As for my friends electing to pay taxes in France? Reading the reponses I can only think they have been mis-informed. They certainly think it will give them basic CMU cover.    

[AnOther]

If your OH is remaining in the UK then he will need to get an E109 for you and he will still be covered himself by the NHS.

I would definitely talk to your friends because if they haven't actively applied to CPAM and received an attestation

which is issued prior to the Carte Vitale they are not in the health

system and without cover via an E form or private health insurance they are not legally resident in the country and could also be at risk of having to pay the full cost of any treatment needed.

I don't understand the sniggering remark BTW [8-)]