Metronic sat boxes

[Thebiga]

Hi People

I have been looking at the Metronic satellite boxes for sale in 'Bricomarche' that come as a package with dish etc for €58,90. Does anyone think these are a good bet for getting TNT. It just says 'Kit Satellite numerique monnbloc'!

As I said will this get me TNT or what other french channels may I get. I'm just looking for the cheapest set up for when the analogue signal to the aerial gets shut down.

Thanks. 

 

[Danny]

No, this will not get you all the TNT channels.

It is a digital decoder for free to air channels only. That means for French main channels (available at the moment from Atlantic bird satellite 5.0w) only France2, France3, france5 and ARTE plus the Parliament channel and also TMC.

If you want all the TNT channels by Satellite you have a choice of either TNTSAT or FRANSAT.

'Decoder and card' packs start from around 100 euros upwards.

Danny

[Thebiga]

Hi Danny, Thanks for that, No trip to bricomarche for the cheapy then.

[Martin963]

When the analogue signal to the aerial gets "shut down" it will in almost all cases be replaced by the digital TNT signals,  if these digital signals haven't already been activated alongside the analogue ones.

The vast majority of homes in France will get good digital terrestrial TV signals (ie TNT) when switch-over is complete in November 2011.   The problem at the moment is that digital terrestrial transmitters have to be kept down in power otherwise they would spoil existing analogue transmissions;  the official policy is always that analogue pictures should not be degraded for anyone until they are officially closed.

There are 3500 odd transmissions sites for TV in France.   Of these,  1100 will be shut down for good when analogue ends.   1100 might sound an awful lot,   but in practice the ones that will close serve tiny hamlets and sometimes just two or three houses (often using less than 1 W of transmission power,  cf the transmitter for Loire Atlantique that is capable of 1,000,000 W),  or sometimes parts of towns where analogue multipath (ghosting) is a problem.    Unless you live in a very very difficult reception area the increase in digital power will compensate for many of these losses,  and/or the robustness of digital to ghosting will eliminate the need for many of the relays.

TNTsat and Fransat are designed a)  for the 4 % or so of households who may never get digital on an aerial,  and b) for those who will get it but haven't got it yet  (specifically five main stations,  including Limoges,   and many many relays waiting for conversion).

What I'm trying to say (in a rather technically long-winded way!) is that for most people,  even with old degraded aerials,   digital via their aerials WILL work fairly soon.    By all means go the satellite route if you have a good reason,  (for example we do,  a)  we're sort of served by Limoges,  or would be if they'd managed to switch it on!) and b) we have four boxes so that we can continue to get French TV in Britain,  (which is of course NOT what the promoters of TNTsat and Fransat had in mind!!))  but otherwise a cheap €30 box is likely to do the trick with an aerial,   ..........eventually.

Here in Devon the high powered digital transmissions replaced the interim ones in August, with in some cases a ten fold increase in power.    I have been gratified to be proved right in the case of our neighbours,   who suffered poor analogue pictures from an 18 element aerial,  half of which had been blown away in a storm,  and who now enjoy cracking digital pcitures;   in fact I have been able to remove two amplifiers from their system,  in fact HAD to remove two amplifiers.

[Thebiga]

Thanks Martin963

We have a problem here. We are Loire Atlantique smack bang in the middle of a triangle of towns which are Rennes, Nantes & Angers and our aerial points to nantes. Anyway sometime ago they put up some wind turbines right in the middle of our signal path so the picture sort of comes and goes not to badly and we only get about 4 stations. But when you put a TNT box onto the end it really pixelates and comes and goes a little more.

So we thought about turning the aerial to a different transmitter but which one? Will it get us a better picture or do we have to wait until they take off the analogue signal before the picture gets better. The main problem is not for us but the french who rent our gites. We do have one aerial pointing to a different place and we do get a better picture but only about 4 stations, but again when we put on the TNT box it seems as though the signal is not good enough and it pixelates but does not come and go because no wind turbines in the way. We need to try and get the TNT as cheap as possible and that would be via aerial but at the moment we have problems.

Do you have any other ideas?

[Anton Redman]

Have a look at signal strength and quality on the TNT box pointing in the other direction. If quality is OK but strenght very poor try a mast head applifier

[Martin963]

Ah I see the problem now!   Turbines are -  or can be - a real problem,  in spite of one daft study I read which said they had no effect on UHF at all.   Hmmm.

Rennes and Angers both have important transmitters,  (St Pern and Rochefort sur Loire respectively),  but if your aerial was installed on Nantes Haute Goulaine it's reasonable to assume that it was done for a good reason (at least at the time before the turbines were erected!) and so personally I'd hold out little hope of getting better TNT signals from the other two,  given their interim lower powers.   It's possible that when the powers are whacked up you would have a good chance,  people in Britain (and indeed southern Ireland!) are finding that the increased powers are going a long way,  with Caradon Hill in Cornwall getting well into Ireland and Stockland Hill in Devon serving Swindon quite well  (at least it was in the summer).

As Danny has said,   you would get four important channels with a free to air numerique box.    It depends on the sort of French who rent your gites (pace Clair!).    Some of our more left leaning friends consider TF1 and M6 to be the work of the devil (incarnate in poor Mr Sarkozy!) and won't watch them,    they'd be happy if you offered them just F2/3/5/Arte.

An alternative,  but temporary,   is to get *analogue* sat boxes  (provided you can get them really cheap,  they are sometimes on sale for €30 ish in Bricowhatevers) as they will add TF1 and M6 to the 2/3/5 above.    However,  it is planned that that analogue feed on Atlantic Bird 3 will stop at the same time as the last transmitters in the analogue UHF network,  so you would be faced with boxes-for-landfill in November 2011;  (actually I guess they might have to push the date back a few months, but it won't be more than that and that's me guessing).    If you did that you might find that it gives you time to test the terrestrial alternative when your region switches over properly,  which as far as I can see is 2nd trimestre 2010,  ie by end June 2010.   So you'd have nearly 18 months to play with aerials!

Actually could you limp on until June 2010 anyway, and then give the terrestrial digital another try when the powers are increased?   I for one would be interested to know whether a power increase cures the wind turbine problem,  I just don't know the answer to that!

[Martin963]

As I'm trying now to find out more about wind turbines and digital and power increases,  could you possible indicate roughly

a)   how far the turbines are from you

b)   how far you are from Nantes Haute Goulaine  (Nantes will do,   the transmitter is at the south east tip of the conurbation)

Might help my "expert"....

Thanks

[Thebiga]

I would say we are only about a third of a mile away from the turbines and we have three of them.

We are about 70km from Nantes.

The aerial we have pointing to what maybe Rennes has a amplifier by the tv as the picture is pretty poor without it as does the one pointing towards Nantes. Someone did mention a mast amplifier! Any different than what I am using now? The aerial is a fair size one and I don't think that changing it for a better one would make much of a change, Or would it? The one we have pointing towards Nantes is one of those Tri -aerials.

The problem with waiting till June when they may then up the power is that we will probably already have people in the gites by then. Thats why I need to try and sort something before then. we put uk satellite in for last year and it was a bit of a job for five properties as they are not all right next to eachother and I'm thinking that its gonna have to be French satellite as its the only guaranteed way of getting the TNT before we have people in.  

If we put in the french satellite and its going to be scart leads we should have no problem with some of the tv's being uk ones should we, Or will we? Thanks for all the info and I look forward to any more that you think maybe of any use to me.  

 

[Thebiga]

Just been down to one of the gites with the aerial pointing towards Rennes and attached a TNT box we had some time ago and took a look at the Strength and Quality. The Quality is between 80% -98% and the strength 48% and everything looks good then all of a sudden the quality just drops maybe to 60% and the picture pixelates. Sometimes it goes lower and the picture goes completely. Do you think its a dodgey box as I cant see any reason why it would suddenly just loose the quality like that.

I have looked up mast amplifiers and I think it may have had one on it before as the bits of the original box on the mast are still there. A metal box with four outlets coming out (just the back bit). When you have a mast amplifier do have just one cable going up and you take the outlets off from the mast box to other tv's as this would work for three properties that are all attached and feed off the same aerial 'Or I would like it to' it did once.

Cheers

[Martin963]

You could have problems with British TV's and French analogue satellite,   even using SCART leads.    Not all British TV's can cope with SECAM,  even at baseband (ie via Scart).   You can only tell by trying,  or looking in the instruction books.

A masthead amplifier comes in two parts,  an indoor bit that has an in and an out (normally conventional TV aerial plugs,   but sometimes F connectors like satellite plugs) and a bit up near the aerial,  which is the actual amplifier.   The indoor power supply puts a 12 V (normally) supply on the aerial cable which travels up the coax to the amplifier and makes it work.   The TV signals happily come down the other way in an amplified state!    You split off more sets after the signals have passed through the indoor power supply,  often using another "ordinary" amplifier.

You can get sudden catastrophic dips in digital signal quality,   and apart from atmospherics (which are normally slower in effect) these drop-outs can come from such things as thermostats,   drills,  welders,   dodgy fluorescent lights,   lawn mowers,   or even -  as I found out after hours of hunting at some neighbours - an electric fence.  

Difficult to know what to suggest without seeing the installation.    It's always worth getting the analogue pics as good as possible,   particularly F5 and M6 if you can get them,   as they are nearly always lower powered than 1/2/3 and therefore more accurately reflect what you might expect on digital.    Check the amplifier is getting its supply (they act as effective filters if they don't get their juice).   You could try another TNT box,  some are more sensitive than others but to be honest I doubt you'll notice enough difference (even if you're lucky) to guarantee 100% reliability.    You could try a second (additional) distribution amplifier (ie not a mast head one) as described above but again unless the cables are long it's probably a waste of time.   And there comes a point (with both analogue and digital) where too much amplification actually seriously degrades the signal.

I'm sure you've checked,  but don't forget that when you move a TNT box from Haute Goulaine to St Pern you need to do a rescan  (and vice versa).   Same applies for analogue of course,  except that a rescan is replaced by retuning the individual channels.   I take it you know which channels are in use at each site,  if not I can advise.

70 kms is getting to the edge of a service area,   how far are you from St Pern  (which is a bit north west of Rennes,  well probably about 20 miles!)

[Anton Redman]

Just been down to one of the gites with the aerial pointing towards Rennes and attached a TNT box we had some time ago and took a look at the Strength and Quality. The Quality is between 80% -98% and the strength 48% and everything looks good then all of a sudden the quality just drops maybe to 60% and the picture pixelates. Sometimes it goes lower and the picture goes completely. Do you think its a dodgey box as I cant see any reason why it would suddenly just loose the quality like that. Much more likely to be the antenna moving, or a less than tight connection,swop boxes to test if possible. I have always found SECAM compatability to be all or nothing and it could not efect what the box reprts as strength or quality.

[Martin963]

Have just heard back from my "expert" who feels that when the power is increased you may well be fine on Nantes.   He's had direct experience of this problem up North and reckons that generally digital resists better than analogue to this sort of degradation.

But that's not much help to you when you're up against a time limit of the first guest arrivals.....

[Martin963]

Certainly do what Anton suggests and check all connections,  that is another "classic" problem.

"I have always found SECAM compatability to be all or nothing and it could not efect what the box reprts as strength or quality."

However,  I am - I confess - mystified by Anton's remarks above about SECAM and digital signals.    Could you enlighten us a bit Anton?

[Anton Redman]

" You could have problems with British TV's and French analogue satellite,   even using SCART leads.    Not all British TV's can cope with SECAM,  even at baseband (ie via Scart).   You can only tell by trying,  or looking in the instruction books " Relevant experience as below :

Secam video cassette, PAL and NTSCT video player, multistandard Thomson TV or cheap French TV, video plays sound OK but video in Black and White. Same cassette multistandard Thomson VCR TV combi still on mono only works when TV menu is set to France and language is French at which point works perfectly. Optex el cheapo products analalogue box also required TVs to set to French and French then rescanned.

Almost as cheap digital box produced good pictures as soon as connected to any TV. Only quirk ws that colours were staturated using an FM transmitter and receivers via a scarts unless a TV was used on the transmitting. TNT (not TNT par SAT) box did not require either rescan,change of language to French, change of coutry to French before working perfectly on the two Thomson sets referred to above.

The only way I can see pixelation as an issue on a TV receiving analogue signals is if the original feed to the broadcaster prior to transmission was digital and for what ever reasons did not have enough band width for transmission either to the broadcaster ot from the broadcaster to the transmissionmast or sattellite.  

NB it is too many years since I worked for a broadcaster and was never on the technical end

 

[Thebiga]

What about a higher gain aerial, Something like Televes Dat 45-75? Would that help me get some extra power.

St Pern is about 100km from here.

I appreciate all your information guys (some a little beyond me) and will have to give it all some thought. The new french tv's with the built in TNT receiver do you know how well they work, Tnt wise.

Cheers 

[Martin963]

Depends how high-gain your present one is....

Televes do not have a good reputation,   their aerials have a habit of flying to pieces in the first puff of wind.   But again you've got nothing to lose,  and I've certainly seen the amplified UHF arrays you buy in Mr Bricolage for about €50 transform poor reception into good reception.   You just can't tell until you shell out and try.

100 km is a long long way for UHF at the best of times (unless like the Pic du Midi the transmitter happens to be on a 2700 m high mountain of course).   Having said that,  if you've got nothing in the way between you and St Pern then it's possible,   although the risk (again because we're in the "interim" dual running period) is that even if it does work now the slightest "lift conditions" may bring other transmitters (whether analogue or digital) romping in on that nice high gain amplified aerial you've installed and stamp all over the signal you want.

But certainly height and aerial gain are the two crucial things,   ultimately more important as a foundation than any amount of amplification.

But by the time you've got the aerial,  a high pole,  put it up,  bought more splitters etc etc I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be cheaper to shell out on the encessary number of €99 Metronic Fransat boxes (or TNTsat boxes if you can get them for €99) and use a dish with a four or eight way LNB.    No colour compatibility problems either with your British TV's  (no problem with conventional TNT either of course,   but as mentioned the analogue sat route could be problematic and - I stress - a stop gap).

I'm sorry not to be able to say yes or no definitely,   it's the great problem with terrestrial reception,  and always has been.   The advantage of satellite is that in almost all cases it is 100% reliable (well,  OK very heavy rain can knock it out briefly).    Terrestrial is only 100% reliable if you're properly within the service area and your aerial system is performing.....

[microwave mike]

"Televes do not have a good reputation, their aerials have a habit of flying to pieces in the first puff of wind."

That's a pretty damning indictment of a well known manufacturer's products. I take it you have a source that can back up this claim?

[Thebiga]

Thanks very much chaps for all your information & time on this. I also think that the by aerial route is just to much of a suck it and see way to go and I do think the satellite is the only guaranteed way of getting what I need really. So I think its probably bite the bullet and shell out for the satellite soon.

Many thanks

[Martin963]

[quote user="microwave mike"]"Televes do not have a good reputation, their aerials have a habit of flying to pieces in the first puff of wind."

That's a pretty damning indictment of a well known manufacturer's products. I take it you have a source that can back up this claim?[/quote]

You can choose to agree or disagree with that statement.   It's up to you.

And do feel free to defend Televes if you so wish.....

[Martin963]

[quote user="Thebiga"]

Thanks very much chaps for all your information & time on this. I also think that the by aerial route is just to much of a suck it and see way to go and I do think the satellite is the only guaranteed way of getting what I need really. So I think its probably bite the bullet and shell out for the satellite soon.

Many thanks

[/quote]

No problems.   Sorry that it's not possible to be more definite...