Don't trust Agents

[Frederic]

Two years ago we signed a contact with a bilingual land agent who would help us find a farm in France. The initial fee was 500 with a further charge of 4,500 once we bought a property.

We paid the first 500 and received a list of suitable farms to visit with the agent in France. We agreed to meet him at one of his former successful installations where we heard lots of wonderful things about him and a dire warning of what could happen if we didn't use his services. We were invited to stay the night but presented with a bill for 50 in the morning.

We paid all his expenses but discovered that many of the farms on the list weren't available. We visited our favourite farm only to discover that it wasn't even for sale.

The agent called us several weeks later to say that we could come to an attractive joint investment agreement with the owner of the farm. He demanded a further 500 and his expenses for a second visit. We again discovered that his information was incorrect; the farm owner had financial problems and the local Chambre d'Agriculture were not happy about any association.

The agent was to contact us again with the news that the local Chambre d'Agriculture was happy for us to form a Farm Company (Gaec) with the farm owner and that this would protect our investment in the farm. The agent had also found a nearby Chalet for us to buy with some land to get us started.

We accepted his advice and sold our home and possessions in England to start a new life in France. A few days before we were due to leave the agent called again to demand his full fee of 4,500 which would apparently ensure he was at hand to complete our installation on the farm. We paid the fee.
We arrived in France to discover that the Chalet was not for sale and that the Farm owner could not form a farm company because she was involved in Litigation over debts.

Over the past two years we have suffered a catalogue of disasters with this agent and as a consequence have lost almost all of our money. We have not found a farm and currently live in rented accommodation in France.

We have managed to recover about two thirds of the 4,500 installation fee, but the agent has now decided to abandon us. In desperation we did write and agree to end the relationship if he repaid the outstanding balance but we have heard nothing.

We have since spoken to a few others who have had a similar experience with this agent; nobody knows what to do and there is a general reluctance to be the whistleblower. The agent appears to be self employed and does not appear to hold membership to any professional body or organisation that would in anyway influence the manner in which he conducts business.

Has anybody else come across a similar situation or have any ideas what to do.?

[Will]

Although we sympathise with you over the problems you have had with this particular agent please don't tar all French property agents with the same brush. The majority are helpful and straightforward people.

If the agent is UK-based there would seem to be little you can do other than use the UK legal system (of dubious benefit as the problem is in France) or respond to one of the postings on the forums from people making TV programmes and looking for those who have had problems.

If the person is based in France then any business in France is supposed to be registered with the relevant authorities and/or professional bodies. A property agent is supposed to be qualified, and hold a carte professionelle. If this person is working illegally you should make a complaint to the local gendarmerie. There are heavy penalties (including imprisonment)for operating ilegally.

In either case it would seem you need legal advice.

Will (50)
Forum moderator

[Penny29]

Hi,

First of all I'll say that I am very sorry for everything that happened to you at the hands of this unscrupulous agent (but my suspicion is that he will deny being an "agent" at all if reported and will claim instead that he was being paid for translation services or something similar).

But your posting has also made me want to scream "Do your research first" at the top of my voice. So, in the hope of someone somewhere reading this thread who is in the process of just thinking about buying a property in France, I'll say learn as much as you can about the whole property buying process before you even start looking for a house.

Yes, it's boring, yes, it takes time, but it is worth it in the long run. Read every single darned posting on this Forum, read every available book on the subject, and visit French exhibitions and property shows and make a point of talking to the "experts."

As in the UK, any agent worth his or her salt only takes payment after they have successfully completed a sale - up front fees for something that may never happen are a joke.

I assume that you must've got in the "old car repair" syndrome mentality where you kept putting more cash in hoping to end up with something to show for your initial investment, but the warning bells were there at an early stage, as I am sure you realise.

I really, really wish you could name and shame this guy.

But, along with Will, I must say don't tar all agents with the same brush, many (British affiliates and French) are sterling people who do a good job & who are totally honest. These are the ones who take their commission at the END not the begining (by the way I am NOT an agent!!!)

If you know other people who have been burnt by this guy can't you all get together and seek legal advice?

At the very least report him to the tax authorities (in both countries if he is English) - if he is dishonest when dealing with clients then you can bet your S.A. he isn't registered or paying his dues anywhere. This won't get your money back but will give you some sense of satisfaction.

Good luck and keep us all posted

Penny

[Penny29]

Frederic,

This may help.

A friend of mine was "taken" by a con man in the UK several years ago. This scam involved getting people to invest as "directors" in this supposedly sure-fire business.

They preyed on my mate as her husband had just taken a substantial sum in redundancy (they had had enough to pay off their entire mortgage). The guy appeared to have all the trappings - house with pool, flash car, rich lifestyle.

They initially invested around 30,000 then the bills started coming in (this guy gave their name and address for billing purposes), he came up with plenty of excuses about cash-flow and my mates continued to plough money into the enterprise in the hope of getting it back (the old car syndrome). It took a year before the penny dropped that they would never get a penny from the business let alone their initial investment back. By this time they had had to re-mortgage their house, they had three young kids and my friend (the wife) and her husband had to get full time jobs just to pay the debts, my friend ended up on tranquilisers, her kids ran wild as she had no time for them - it was a total nightmare.

They did a lot of rooting around, contacted anyone remotely connected with the business and found that over a dozen people had been taken in the same way for various amounts of money. A few of them got together and went to the police.

The Fraud Squad took it over and after almost 2 years of investigation they had the evidence to prosecute, which they did.

My friend never got her money back but she did have the satisfaction of seeing the guy go down for 5 years. This was ten years ago - my mates are still working 60 hour weeks to earn enough cash to pay back their debts. If I rap on about "doing research" then it is because I saw the dreadful consequences of the damage a plausable conman can do.

[Deby]

Hello Frederic,

I am very sorry to hear of your plight and I think that raising it will assist others. Do try to think positive your health and family are intact and that is a good thing. I am sure the sorry affair leaves a sour taste in your mouth at least. You are being very proactive by making people aware of the pitfalls.

Myself am very unsure as to why anyone would need an agent - am I being a bit daft, maybe someone should enlighten me, but if a person wants to buy then surely they can search the internet, visit the Immos and themselves (I am aware of the need to arrange prior) but this can be done and is just equally a pain to the local french too.

I can understand the language element when it comes to legalities i.e. compromis but the most imp bit, but the process is this to me

Do Research- french life, CGT, inheritance,cars, education, health, pensions, taxes and logistics (and I dont mean who latest budget airline)!
Check finance is in order
Learn basic french vocabulary to do with buying and selling properties
Search internet/local media/notaire
Make a list of possibles
Organise visits(could take 2-3 visits)
Choose property
Make an offer
Agree price
Sign Compromis (ensure legal advice is taken here + independent translation if necessary)
Organise Finance
Consider if necessary additional surveys (buildings/disputes)
Transfer funds
Sign Acte
Make friends with your neighbours and invite them for an Apero even if you cant speak a word - there is alot to be said in sign language and gestation

Dont know whether this helps someone new but its a start....
Deby

[Quillan]

Well I am very sorry about the grief you have had but I do feel you have rather bought this on yourself.

Firstly you appear never to have done any serious homework otherwise you would be aware that no normal immobilier in France charges for house/property searches, you would also be aware of the following.

It has been common practice to include the fees in the price of the property for sometime now and this was defiantly the case when we bought 2 years ago.

I am sorry (to others) but never buy through a UK based company as they are often not aware of the laws in France and may not be registered in France. In fact when I searched for immobiliers in France I ruled out all UK based companies.

If you do use a UK agency then 2 articles in any magazine is not sufficient to do business, you need to talk to several of their clients to make sure they are happy.

I would never have sold up and moved over until I had at least paid my deposit and signed my contract (there was a good article on this subject in the LF magazine 2 years ago).

Always deal with a member of the FNAIM in France as this gives you protection and all good immobiliers are members.

The good thing from your story is that it shows exactly how not to go about moving to France and what happens when it goes wrong.

The only course of action is to inform the police both in the UK and France and give them all the details you have as he has basically conned/robed you.


Chris

http://www.chambresdhote.com

[Iceni]

>Two years ago we signed a
>contact with a bilingual land
>agent who would help us
>find a farm in France.
>The initial fee was 500
>with a further charge of
>4,500 once we bought a
>property.
>
>We paid the first 500 and
>received a list of suitable
>farms to visit with the
>agent in France.


Legally I doubt whether you have any chance of recovering the rest of your 4500 or claimed consequential losses - you paid the money therefore you must have been happy.

Only recourse then is to report him to all the legal authorities that you can think of but beware libel/slander laws. As regards Watchdog type programmes - think carefully before exposing your actions to a cynical and finger pointing world - as people will say that you caused many of your problems yourself.

I am sad that you have had such a bad experience and applaud your bravery in coming out - if nothing else your story will remind others of the risks of paying in advance.

Despite their generally bad press some estate/land agents are good guys (surely) - but man will always take advantage of the gullible in any and all walks of life.

John
http://www.iceni-it.co.uk

[Frederic]

Hello John W

Your email got scrambled so I cannot respond direct.

Yes it looks like the same agent and yes I will try and help you.

Please send email with your contact details again.

[Frederic]

[quote]Well I am very sorry about the grief you have had but I do feel you have rather bought this on yourself. Firstly you appear never to have done any serious homework otherwise you would be aware that n...[/quote]

Hello Quillan

In buying a farm in France its not just immobilier’s or property owners you have to deal with, it’s the Chambre d’Agriculture, ADASEA, - the need to have a five year plan approved, applying for the primes etc.

Anyone who thinks they can move to France, buy a farm through an immobilier and raise happy cows has clearly not done any homework.

You will have to deal with numerous French departments who all act autonomously and who don’t necessarily agree with each other.

Two years ago we decided that we really must have some help and we picked someone from a very limited field of expertise who appeared to have a good reputation.

Yes, we did meet a couple of his clients and nobody said anything bad (I don’t know if the laws on naming and shaming would have applied).

Our agent was charming, plausible, very quick to think on his feet when confronted. In the early days at least, he could always pass off problems as being due to the administration; the fact that French agricultural officials always seemed to be on holiday, they had long lunch breaks and never ever returned your calls. You always had to go to their office to see them, even for a seemingly trivial matter and just because you had an appointment, it didn’t necessarily mean they would be there.

It was quite easy for him to hide behind all this and retain our confidence.

You clearly have no idea of the processes involved and this is probably my fault for not including a full fifty page exposé. I just don’t think anyone would have the time or patience to read it all.

You really have to go through it to even have a semblance of hope of understanding any of it.

I know that things have gone very wrong and both my family and I will have to suffer the consequences.

But before you get too sanctimonious and heap to much praise upon your good business sense, just try and remember that you didn’t go through it and so you don’t actually know what you would have done.

Despite the posting that I and others have made on this site you appear to be suggesting that we gave all our money to a man in a pub who promised the earth.

YOU CLEARLY DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW CON MEN WORK.

So take care Administrator Quillan, you may just be their next victim.

[Georgina]

It's quite easy for people to judge a character simply by what they look like and their manner.  Sometimes we have to take people at face value because there seems little choice at the time. If you look on the TV, every day you will see people who can play a role and be somebody they are not, do you  think that people who can do this all go into acting or politics??.  So many get taken in by people who are charismatic, charming and appear intelligent.  It's human nature.  After all what would like be like if you did not trust anyone? It's too easy to say you were stupid until it happens to you.

 

Georgina

[Will]

I think it only fair to point out that this is an old topic, from which many of the postings got detached when it was transferred from the previous forum. There was an interesting discussion and taking just a few posts away from the context of the others does rather alter the sense of this thread, at least as I remember it.

When undertaking something major, like buying a place in France, we have to put our trust in people like agents and lawyers. Fortunately most prove entirely competent and trustworthy and things go smoothly, sometimes things go a bit wrong, and occasionally we come across somebody who cannot be trusted or proves less able at his/her job than they should be.

Unfortunately Frederick came across one of the last type of person - and we can sympathise. When buying a farm, rather than just a house, there are so many additional considerations to bear in mind, and things that can go wrong, and when the person you put your trust in, and paid your money to, lets you down, it must be devastating.

I wouldn't go as far as was suggested in the original thread and tell people never to trust agents; I know there are plenty of reputable agences immobiliers and property consultants and am sure there are some good farm agents too. But tales like this do a valuable service in warning others to be very careful, particularly when money is demanded up front.

It is those who appear so plausible and trustworthy on the outside who so often turn out to be quite the opposite. Our thoughts are with you Frederick.

[Scalehill]

Still haven't seen any movement from the Forum controllers to try and introduce a system whereby contributors could articulate a personal judgment on services without getting into libel waters. It it will, Bill ?

[Will]

[quote]Still haven't seen any movement from the Forum controllers to try and introduce a system whereby contributors could articulate a personal judgment on services without getting into libel waters. It it ...[/quote]

Roy, I don't think any public 'naming and shaming' system has been found yet which will keep the lawyers happy. These matters are all so subjective.

But there is a system in place - e-mail or private message via the forum which allows people to ask, and tell, in private who has given unsatisfactory service.

[Scalehill]

What did the LF lawyers say about my proposal for posters to rate out of 10 on a forum owner -defined set of criteria, rather  than going off into yards of comment ? My lawyer said it was OK.

 

[Bobc]

"Always deal with a member of the FNAIM in France as this gives you protection and all good immobiliers are members."

Statements such as this are completely misleading to newcomers to the Forum looking for useful information.

What protection does this give you, rather than using an legally registered French Immobilier that is not a member of FNAIM?

Are you saying that a legally registered French Immobilier that is not a member of FNAIM is less reputable than one that is?

Do members of FNAIM have to conform to higher standards than those who are not members?

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux