Motorbike Importation: another question!

[Bob T]

Gail, If you want to try again then you could look at ebay.de for a pan european, if you need a German speaker then contact me.

[Bob T]

Ok thanks for the website I have printed out the bit and am ready to do battle with the Prefecture now. I just hope that my French is good enough.

Nice to meet you two today Julie, your bikes are on the blog, and we'll see you again.

[Gail Smith]

hi. i am back from the Uk with my lovely ( and i mean lovelyyyyyyyy!) ST1300A. Alls well that ends well, hey? And to close off the discussion on the e-bay issue; we mutually agreed to annul the transaction.

I managed to contact a seller whos bike auction on e-bay ended whilst i was in the uk without reaching the reserve. He had already told me the reserve and when i contacted him, it was still available and when i went up to Derby to see it we did the deal. It truly is immaculate. Late 2002 green ABS model with just 16000 on the clock and serviced by Honda every 4000 miles. (And I got it at Trade price) It has the optional extras; electric screen, heated grips and Honda 'Comfort' Seat. All of which I can recommend if anyone is considering one of these and wondering if the options are worth it. I made good use of all them today as i drove through 3 hours of continuous torrential rain betweem Le Havre and Tours. 

Thanks for all the help and advice (particularly Sunday Driver), I just have to take the C of C to bloody the civil servants...... but now its time to get on and enjoy it for real........ Cheers!

mike

[Bob T]

Mike, It looks very nice inthe pictures that Jules emailed today. We'll have to all get together sometime.

[Gail Smith]

Sunday Driver

The C of C should arrive in the post for my Pan this week from Honda UK, so i will be off to perigueux next week to lock horns with bureaucracy!

In teresting what you posted from the official french site...very useful. A couple of specific questions:- The two compulsory docs. are, i assume, the UK V5C, but what is the 'Certificate Fiscal'?

in the 'other documents to furnish', I will have the C of C which I am assuming will say the BHP is 117. Should I get the power reduction done (and the docs to prove it) BEFORE I go to the prefecture, as I think this is the only 'non-conforming' aspect of the bike I will have to change.

Or maybe if i just go there they won't notice the power difference!!!

"Preparation is the Secret to success....and the essence of successful subtifuge!"

[Sunday Driver]

You've got two choices:

Go directly to the prefecture with your CoC and see if you can wing it through.  However, I think that 117bhp would be the killer.  If it's not too far to travel, it could be worth giving it a go.

Otherwise, get it restricted then get an RTI done at the DRIRE, then go to the prefecture.

The fiscal certificate is the "quittus fiscal" which you obtain from your local hotel des impots.  It certifies there's no VAT to pay on the bike.  You'll need to produce your V5C, receipt and a utility bill.  The certificate is free.

Documents needed for the prefecture:

Demande de certificate d'immatriculation (registration application form - just fill in the name/address bit on page one, leave the technical data on page two)

V5C registration document

Honda certificate of conformity (if you can get away with it), OR (if you can't)

DRIRE process-verbal de reception de titre isole (SVA certificate)

Passport

Utility bill

Quittus fiscal certificate

Best of luck.....

 

[Bob T]

Gail, I am going to the Prefecture in Perigueux in the morning to try again with mine. I don't have any problem with hte power output as that is 99 bhp. I will however take (again) my C of C from the UK and when they say that it has to be a French one, I will produce the printout from their website.

Let you know what happens .

[Dog]

I have a '96 Honda GL 1500 F6C (a Valkyrie in USA) which I am taking back to UK to sell. I have given up and bought a French registered cheap run around a 2003 Kawasaki ZRX 1200 only 10,000k and a snip at€5000 it's immaculate and has extras - it aint a bike you can fall in love wth - it will never be a Ducati but it runs well. Recently did 5000k in 4 days.

Point is my trigger finger gets itchy when I have to deal with civil servants. I have bags of patience but cannot do with red tape - it seems a conspiracy to waste time and money on these long winded paper trails.

I don't mind paying if anyone wants to get my UK bikes reregistered.

[Bob T]

Well, what a result. Went into the prefecture at 14:10 with the same documentation that they had refused twice before, but this time with the printout from their website as advised on this thread. I kept the printout in my pocket ready to produce it, but this time there was no problem with the C of C. I walked out at 14:30 with the Carte Gris in my hand.

I was so pleased that I did not bother to ask why it had been refused on previous occasions. Good result and thanks to all here for the information.

[Sunday Driver]

Missed an opportunity to rub their noses in it, Bob.... [;-)]

Clearly the original clerk needed some more training.

Well done and happy riding!

 

[Gail Smith]

Nice result Bob. Where exactly is the prefecture in Perigeuex? Its my local too.

Anybody know if i have to send the V5C off to uk for change of keeper first, or if i can take it as it is? The reason I ask is I assume i also would have to send back the Notification of Permenant Export Slip, (DVLA will be aware that the bikes road tax has expired, but it has an MOT, though i am insured here in france) and I am not sure what would then happen next at DVLA. As I have a V5C in my hand at the moment, would hate to find i cause myself problems by tring to register as new keeper overseas and end up with no V5C to take to the prefecture!

[Chezstevens]

The only cautionary advice would be reference insurance. I have a R1200RT that will be restricted by a plug in chip 'cos your french insurer will insure on the basis of <100 bhp. If you subsequently have an accident the examiner will look to ensure that the vehicle meets the spec it was insured for - just as they do in the UK -if it doesn't they will not pay and you will be faced with your own losses, the gendarmes and third party claims.

[Bob T]

Gail, I think that you will need to get your name on the UK logbook before going about importing the bike. I have never bothered to de register mine in the UK, they did send me a fine for having no roadtax but I phoned them and told them to stuff it. They told me to pop down to my local post office and get a form, I then asked them if the post office in Rouffignac would have this form! They cannot impose a roadtax fine here as it is required for a vehicle used on the UK roads.

The prefecture is at the top end of Perigueux, if you park in the tree lined car park and walk away from the town it is on the right. Do you have a Certificate of Conformity? Is the bike less than 100 bhp? If not I think that you may have the same problems as Julie had with the 'busa, and will find that the insurance will cancel on you.

Do you have skype? give me a call on the username "madmanbob" and I'll explain the prefecture location.

Chez, does that mean that you can swap the chip over? Do you have any more information on the restricting of BMWs? I can feel a new K1200S coming here, 170bhp, thats what I want.

[Sunday Driver]

Gail

DVLA can't process a change of keeper because you don't have a UK address.  So keep the existing V5C and your invoice/receipt as proof of ownership.  Before you hand over the V5C to the prefecture, fill in the tear off export slip and return it to the DVLA with a covering note explaining the situation.

Regarding the road tax, because the bike is still UK registered, it has to be fully road legal and have a current valid tax disc, even for riding in France (this is reinforced in the French customs import rules which state that all foreign imports must have all taxes and duties paid in the country of origin).  In practice, however, you should be OK and you'll be covered to ride the bike on it's foreign plates for a couple of weeks under the quittus fiscal certificate.

The advice on making sure the bike is at the legal power rating is good - even if you do manage to get it registered without having to derestrict it first.[;-)]

 

 

[Gail Smith]

sunday driver

thanks for the advise. i was hoping there was a way to avoid sending the V5C back as i want to get the bike changed over soon. I will do it all next week now.

I think the issue on power rating is rather a contentious one which, normally I would steer well clear of discussing.  But this isn't Gail writing , ITS MIKE, so sod-it!..........Suffice to say that I have always intended to do whatever the system tell me regarding power restrictions as its all very well having a 'jack-the-lad approach' until you get caught, like when you get involved in an accident. The beauty with the ST1300 is its not only got 117bhp at the rear wheel, but more importantly its got 117Nm torque there too. If you want an exciting bike, in France, legally, change your mindset from power to torque. I had an R1 in the UK (and not the woosy EU version with the chips in to restrict power in the bottom two gears; mine was Canadian) and, yes, it was mindblowing. But I have to say, in 99% of useable situations, this 1300 Pan is seeringly quick solo in the range 0-100mph because of the torque and superb engine/gearbox design. (And if my testosterone gets a bit pent-up, i can still pull a wheelie, no problem at all...and not just in first either.)

I agree that its pointless having a 150+BHP bike restricted to 100bhp; thats why i sold my R1 before i moved here. But we all decide to live here to find something different to life in the Uk. So why not take the same imaginative, open-minded approach to ones motorcycling...but don't go as far as buying Italian (Joke!!!! Honest!!!)

Mike

[Bob T]

I believe that the rules for Road Fund License as the correct name is, is that you must have one for any vehicle used on the UK roads. As the bike is not on the UK road then you should not need one. Go out and look at the lack of tax disc on many UK registered cars here in France and you will see that loads of other people see it like that too.

[Gail Smith]

The law states that a vehicle has to be licensed in the country it is registered, regardless of where the vehicle is driven in the EU, until it is permenantly exported when it then has to conform to the local legislation. Same goes for the MOT.  I suppose its just too much hassle for the french police to follow this up, cos i have not heard of anyone being prosecuted. But there is always a first time i suppose!

 

[Chezstevens]

No tax on UK registered vehicle = no insurance and illegal. Have an accident and watch your dreams disappear as you find your assets are seized to pay 3rd parties. It still beggars belief that folk delude themselves about tax and MOT on a British registered vehicle. Pleading ignorance will not avert the problem either - the type of folk that drive illegal vehicles are also those that flout the rules by working 'on the black'. If you cannot pay your way then you need to rethink your strategy.

Having ignited touch paper I will wait for those that feel there is nothing wrong with potential charges driving an illegal vehicle - after all they don't give us all a bad name or do they?

[Bob T]

 But to be fair to the many UK plated cars that you see (and mine is French plated) most of them have a French insurance sticker and some also have a CT sticker in hte windscreen. I would doubt if the French insurance would require a tax disc or an MOT too.

[Chezstevens]

Bob T,

Those that drive UK registered vehicles with a CT and french insurance are going through the matriculation process and are given 30 days by the insurance company before they ask questions. Sadly there are plenty of UK vehicles that blithely continue with no current MOT or Tax and have not started the matriculation of their vehicles - these are the individuals that are flouting the law. When, not if, these individuals are stamped on I hope that those vehicles are impounded, just like the UK, then crushed. It is not the way to start a relationship with your adopted country.

[Bob T]

I think that we both have the same opinion, but it is not true about the 30 day insurance. My bike now has French plates on it but my wifes has UK plates and French insurance and has had for 18 months now. It has the insurance sticker prominently displayed but has no tax, they won't send it to my French address, and no MOT. CTs are not required for bikes here.

We are not trying to buck the system and as soon as we can sort out a C of C for her bike it will also go onto French plates.

I know of a German electrician who bought a van of a Brit with UK plates on it and has been using it here for his work for over 2 years now. How can he, as a french resident, drive a van with UK plates on it?

I also know of a Brit just north of Cahors, who has had his car for nearly a year and has still got plates from another department on it and an out of date insurance sticker that belongs to another car in hte windscreen. When he gets caught, and I hope that he does, the locals will think that all Brits are doing it and we shall be tarred with the same brush.

[Chezstevens]

Probably find the german electrician has a lot more to explain when he is stopped than driving a UK plated vehicle. You are obliged to have the plates of the country you are resident in for more than 183 days per year. I know that individuals ''drive'' back for their MOT and Tax and declare that it is for the authorities to prove that they are resident for 183 days but they are frankly deluding themselves. As a matter of interest did you return the tearoff on the V5 for your wife's motorcycle declaring it has been exported? This also gives a timescale for matriculation.

[Gail Smith]

Agree with everything you are both saying about the dodgers. It is correct about sending back the Export slip on the V5C; this is similar to doing a SORN as far as the DVLA are concerned and pushes your responsibility for excise to the country of export. (DVLA's words, not mine) So you do in effect get a period of grace to re-register the vehicle. It is also possible to be legal regarding this (tax) and MOT here during the process of re-registration. All you have to do is be up-front with your french insurers. Generali are insuring me, fully without reservation, without requiring MOT to validate the insurance, ( which they do only because it is impossible to CT a bike here) provided i start the registration process within 2 months (they will then renew the 2 month cover note, and finish the process within the 12 month insurance period. Now i don't think you can say fairer than that, especially as my bike needs restricting.

I m ust admit i can't see why so many people do avoid the process when, in the context of all the other things we have to go through to live and work here, its not that difficult or expensive.

mike

[Sunday Driver]

To clarify matters, here is the position regarding road tax as set out by the respective legislation both sides of the channel.

A vehicle registered in the UK must have a road fund licence.  Under the rules for continuous taxation, a current valid tax disc must be displayed on the vehicle at all times.  The exception to this is when the vehicle is not being used on a public highway, in which case a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) may be declared.  The prohibition on driving under a SORN declaration extends to all public roads, including those abroad.

Vehicles temporary exported to other EU countries (ie, on holiday or being used for short term business trips) may be driven there by their UK resident owner for up to six months in any twelve month period.  During this time, the vehicle must continue to conform with the taxation requirements of its "home" country, ie you must display a current valid tax disc. If the tax disc expires whilst you are abroad, the DVLA can forward a replacement to you if you provide them with a postal address in France. Otherwise you may declare SORN - provided the vehicle is kept off the road.  In other words, the physical location of the vehicle makes no difference to the taxation requirements.

Vehicles permanently exported from the UK by people moving to France must be reported to the DVLA at the time of exit by way of the V5C tear-off export notification slip.  The vehicle will then no longer be UK registered (ie, it's now listed as permanently exported) and therefore there is no longer a requirement to have a tax disc. Note that once you have exported your car from the UK, the old V5C is no longer valid as a current registration document.

With regard to vehicles being used "full time" by people resident in France and the insurance situation:

On arrival in France, the vehicle must be immediately declared to French customs and any VAT due must be paid.  Under EU regulations, as a resident in France, you are not permitted to drive a foreign (ie UK) registered vehicle, so to get around this restriction, the customs declaration certificate acts as a quasi temporary French registration document which is valid for a limited period to allow you to drive the vehicle on its foreign (UK) plates whilst you arrange any necessary technical safety tests followed by permanent registration.  Interestingly, this helpful concession has not been adopted by the DVLA!

According to the code de la route, driving a vehicle without a valid certificate of registration is an offence. Regardless of their willingness to provide cover, driving an unregistered vehicle will almost certainly be a breach of your French insurance company's terms and conditions with the resultant impact on any subsequent accident damage/theft claim.

In Gail's case, her insurers have agreed to provide cover whilst she sorts out her registration.  This is the normal situation and they will expect her to have obtained her temporary (customs) registration certificate so as to make the bike legal whilst she is doing this.

 

 

[Chezstevens]

Sunday Driver,

Well put. I contribute to this forum as well as several motorcycle forums. I note that several motorcycles have not been matriculated for over a year!! As I said folks are delusional if they believe their bikes are road legal in France with this extended period of grace. If they have an accident, whilst in this predicament, then their dreams of a happy retirement, or productive employment, may turn to ashes very quickly.