Do you really need a C of C when re-registering a UK vehicle ?

[AnOther]

I came across this on another forum:

"If you are registering a UK vehicle in France and you have the new style multi page UK registration document you should find on the left hand side an item marked "type approval number" asterisks followed by a ten/eleven character reference. If this is on your document you will not require a certificate of conformity as this number gives the prefecture all the information that is required"

From some of the replies posted it would appear that some V5's have the information and some not however it goes on the say;

"GUIDANCE NOTES FOR THE NEW V5C (log book)

Page 3   INTRODUCTION

On 1st of January 2004 a new certificate was introduced to replace the V5 registration document. The new certificate has been developed to comply with the European directive 1999/37EC. The directive requires member states to introduce a common format for registration certificates,which will help with the identification of vehicles in international traffic and be accepted for re-registration throughout the European union".

Apparently some prefectures need reminding that EU directives apply in France (fancy that !) but armed with this info you should be able to argue your case for not requiring a seperate C of C from the vehicle manufacturer and possibly save yourself some time and money.

I'm not in position to root out the V5 for my Golf at the moment so don't know if it's on there but wonder if anybody else has got this on theirs or has had it accepted ?

 

[Sunday Driver]

On the contrary, France does comply with EU directives.

Directive 1999/37EC is the standard which relates to the design/format of vehicle registration documents and the French carte grise fully complies.

The directive on EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval requires member states to accept EU approved vehicles for registration without additional inspection or modification and France fully complies.

However, the directive does not remove the requirement to provide a certificate of conformity with EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval.  That's why the vehicle manufacturers issue them to motorists wishing to import their vehicles here.

The requirements are published on the various French central government websites, as well as those of the prefectures.  Given that the official French government view contracts the advice offered on that other forum, I expect the prefectures will be more inclined to comply with govenment regulations rather than accept a 'reminder' by some foreign driver wishing to save himself a few euros....[;-)] 

 

[Chas]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

however, the directive does not remove the requirement to provide a certificate of conformity with EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval.  That's why the vehicle manufacturers issue them to motorists wishing to import their vehicles here.

[/quote]

Although it is some years ago now we were not asked for a certificate of conformity. Instead (I presume) we were given at the sous prefecture a form, in English surprisingly, which contained a facsimile of the vin plate and asked to copy the details. This went into the system with the rest of the bumf and within a very short time we had our carte grise.

[Ron Avery]

Hang on, a C de C has nothing to do with the V5,  V5C or UK log book.

That number on the V5c means that the vehicle almost certainly made after 2000 complies with EU regulations, but since I believe 2000 there is an EU certificate of conformite in the owner's handbook, this is what is used to register the car.. This means that you do not have to apply for a C de C from the manufacturer or DRIRE if you have this certificate.  Cars before 1999 do not have the certificate in the handbook or presumably a number on the V5C. and it is for these that you have to apply for a C de C.

Just be aware that not all prefectures work the same, so don't expect English forms, you can also register cars at many sous-prefectures but not where SD lives it seems. 

[Sunday Driver]

EU whole vehicle type approval for cars was introduced in January 1998, so all vehicles manufactured after that date come with an EU certificate of conformity.  Vehicles manufactured prior to that date must comply with French national type approval, evidenced by a French attestation d'identité.

In Chas' case, he didn't have a type approval certificate for his car, so he was given a standard DRIRE application form to fill in, which was then sent off on his behalf.  The DRIRE then sent the appropriate certificate to the prefecture so that his registration could be processed.  This is a routine service which is provided by all of the prefectures.

The DRIRE application form contains an English language guidance note telling you how to complete the form.......[;-)]

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]The DRIRE application form contains an English language guidance note telling you how to complete the form.......[;-)][/quote]That sounds like an astoundingly sensible idea considering that the very process implies that French just might NOT be your native tongue...[I]

Would you perchance happen to have a link to said document ?

Ron, I have looked in my Golf Handbook but there is nothing there. VW UK are sending me a form of some sort to fill in and return, presumably with a cheque [:(]

I would have thought perhaps they could have done someting just with the Reg or VIN number but then again I suppose they need to know I'm genuine and have not nicked the car and trying to export it.

Would the the C of C which should be in the handbook be specific to my vehicle's VIN or generic for the model. If the latter could I not blag one from someone else who will never need it ?

[Ron Avery]

"Would the the C of C which should be in the handbook be specific to my vehicle's VIN or generic for the model. If the latter could I not blag one from someone else who will never need it ?"

Ernie from SD 's post if your car is post 1998 it will have a certificate and you do not need to get one.  If not, bite the bullet, stop trying to beat the system and apply to VW France for a C de C.

The C de C is issued based on YOUR car's specification not a bloke down the pub.  You do of course know that you need a CT to confirm roadworthiness before registration is possible.

[Sunday Driver]

Ernie

Foreign vehicles are imported by the French as well by us foreigners, so the guidance notes come in both languages...

Here's the [url=http://www.drire.gouv.fr/vehicules/demande_identification.pdf]link[/url] for the application form.

You need to attach a copy of your V5C registration document and a cheque for 67,38€ payable to Régisseur des Recettes de la DRIRE.

VW will charge you around 120€ for their certificate.

 

[allanb]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]The directive on EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval requires member states to accept EU approved vehicles for registration without additional inspection or modification and France fully complies.

However, the directive does not remove the requirement to provide a certificate of conformity with EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval...[/quote]I'm sure you're right, SD, but I think it's nonsensical that France does not accept a certificate of conformity issued by the competent authority in another EU state - not even if it's in French.

I am aware that France is not alone in this.  It's a nice little earner for all the official importers -  €100 or more for doing practically nothing.

[Sunday Driver]

France does accept EU certificates of conformity, regardless of where they are issued.  That's the whole idea behind EU whole vehicle type approval.

Here's how it works.

Say, VW decide to introduce a new model Passat.  In order to sell it in the EU, they must submit the design specs to their national technical authority (in this case, the TUV)  for approval under the common EU technical standards.  They are then issued with a EU type approval number for that model, which is then notified to all of the other EU technical authorities, eg UK Vehicle Certification Agency, DRIRE France, so that the approval is registered and recognised throughout the EU.  

So, when VW UK come to sell a new Passat, they merely include the type approval number on the V55 registration application form.  This is validated by the DVLA and the registration is issued.

If a UK registered vehicle is then personally exported to another EU country, then in the same way, the type approval number has to be presented to the new registration authority.  To do this, the manufacturer (or an importer acting as his agent) may issue a certificate of conformity stating that the particular vehicle is one of the series of vehicles manufactured under that type approval number.  The certificate may be issued by VAG Germany, or VW UK or VW France.  The source is immaterial, as is the language of the certificate.

The certificate then allows you to proceed directly to the prefecture who, like the DVLA, validate the the type approval number and issue the registration.

Apart from some minor differences in procedure, the processes for registration are broadly the same between the UK and France.

 

 

[Ron Avery]

The administrator(s) have configured this forum to have a time limit for deleting messages. If you still require a message to be deleted, please check with a forum moderator.

And the time limit is?????????

[Ron Avery]

Allan I think you are getting confused, France does accept the certificates of conformity issued by all EU car manufacturers, but these were only issued with the car after 1998.  So if you have a car built in the EU before 1998 you do not have an EU  C de C and you have to get one.  You can get this from DRIRE or from the French agent of the car company and as you say it is a nice lttle earner for the car companies, the average is 120€ although I have heard that Peugeot issue their certificates gratuite.

 

EDIT Damn SD beat me to it for a change,  but he only posted his once[:D]

[jc]

One minor point,the TUeV are only the test agency-they forward their recommendations to the KBA in Flensburg who are a government department and who actually issue the paperwork-most EU countries have similar systems(test agency and government dept).The TUeV and other test agencies in various countries will not just inspect documentation-in most cases actual approval tests are carried out-eg. emissions,seat-belts,crash tests,lighting,horn,RFI and many others to ensure compliance with EU and other directives.Only when proof of compliance with all these is received can a CoC be issued-previously proof of each approval was required or each car had to have each system checked individually(single vehicle type approval).

[AnOther]

So, for post 1998 cars officially sold in the EU, the answer to the question really is a NO because they are, by definition, "Type Approved" and all that should be neccessary are minor alterations for local requirements such as lights on RHD cars etc.

Or am I missing something [8-)]

[allanb]

SD and Ron: you may be right in saying what should happen, but it evidently doesn't happen in practice - at least, not always.

I bought a 1999 Mazda (new) from a dealer in Luxembourg, where I lived at the time.  The car's papers included a certificat de conformité CEE pour véhicules complets, issued by the Mazda importer for Belgium and Luxembourg, and helpfully printed in both French and Dutch (one on each side of the paper).

I subsequently moved to Spain and then to France.  In both countries, in order to re-register the car,  I was told by the relevant authority that I had to apply to the main importer in that country for a certificate of European conformity.  Naturally, on each occasion I produced the car's original CC, but was told that that wasn't valid; it had to be one issued in Spain or France respectively.

 

Neither of the importers said "you don't need this" - each of them happily told me what it would cost and accepted my cheque.  By the way, in France the "relevant authority" was the local sous-préfecture, and this was in 2004. 

So I now have four CCs, one in Dutch, one in Spanish, and two in French, representing a total investment of about €250.

From previous threads on this forum it seems that other people have had the same experience.   Not for the first time, I suspect that not everything decreed by the EU finds its way down to the various local administrative bodies.

[Sunday Driver]

Thanks JC, for adding that further background information to the approval process.

Prior to EUWVTA, manufacturers had to obtain individual national type approval from each country they sold into.  So following the example above, a pre 1998 Passat would have been type approved for its home market in Germany, then additionally submitted for national type approval in the UK - and in France, and in Spain, and in Holland...etc.  The introduction of common EU-wide and safety standards means this multi-type approval situation no longer exists. 

However, any car manufactured prior to 1998 does not qualify for an EU certificate of conformity, and will have to have been subject to French national type approval before it can be imported here.  In this case, the manufacturers/importers issue an attestation d'identité (a different document to the CoC but it fulfils the same function).  As JC says, if your vehicle has neither EU nor French national type approval (eg, unofficial Japanese/US imports), then it will require single vehicle type approval. 

Single vehicle type approval is basically the same process as described by JC (but without the crash tests!).  The manufacturer will provide you with a partial conformity attestation together with a technical notice, outlining the specification of the nearest equivalent approved model to yours, together with a list of any items which are different.  You modify those items as necessary to comply with French standards, then an individual type approval certificate is issued for your specific vehicle. 

 

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="allanb"]In both countries, in order to re-register the car,  I was told by the relevant authority that I had to apply to the main importer in that country for a certificate of European conformity.  Naturally, on each occasion I produced the car's original CC, but was told that that wasn't valid; it had to be one issued in Spain or France respectively. [/quote]So I'm wasting my time (and money) by getting a CoC from VW UK ?

[Sunday Driver]

Ernie

In answer to the question "Do you really need a C of C when re-registering a UK vehicle?", the answer is a YES.  As explained in the previous posts, a vehicle may have EU type approval, but you need to produce evidence of this in the form of the certificate of conformity.

Whilst a UK vehicle will have EU type approval, it has been specially fitted with left dipping headlights/MPH speedo in order to conform with UK Construction and Use regulations.  As these don't conform to French local requirements, they need to be altered/changed where appropriate. The rest of the vehicle conforms to the EU standards, so no modifications are required.

 

[Sunday Driver]

Ernie

The code de la route Art  R 321-11 states:

The certificate of conformity necessary for registering a vehicle which is the subject of  EC type approval must be written in French.

That has nothing to do with the vehicle's technical status, by the way.  It's merely a French administrative requirement.

However, it is general practice these days for prefectures to accept certificates in English because the data is the same in both languages.  The problems mentioned by allenb can arise with sous-prefectures, many of whom (Ron!) don't actually process vehicle registrations, so they may have been following the procedure to the letter.

If you're in any doubt, ask VW UK for a version in French or get one from VW France.

 

[Ron Avery]

SD, your experience of registrations I suspect, is from your department who do not do registrations at the sous - prefectures it would appear.  In 12 in the Aveyron, which is a big department, they do, so its possible that 79 os the only one's who do not and 12 the only one that does although Alan suggests there could be another who do.  However, back to alan's point about dealers, when I went to Renault to get a C de C for a Twingo, made in France, first registered in Germany, they asked why I needed it as it was in the Handbook  An examination of the book found that it was a 1994 car registered in 1996. so 116€ lighter and two weeks later I got a C deC.

 If Ernie asks any more about this we should charge him at the same rate as Renault do issuing for a piece of paper[8-|]

[Sunday Driver]

Ron - last word (hopefully) about sous-prefectures.

Since you made your original point about Aveyron, I've taken care to check the local position whenever someone has posted a question about where they register their cars.  There are quite a few departments where the SPs do not offer this service, presumably for a number of reasons.

Clearly in your case, size matters... ..[;-)]

 

[YCCMB]

A quite specific question......does anyone have any idea whether Saintes (SP) or La Rochelle (P) accept Cof C in English? I'm quite happy to drive up to LR if they are more amenable to accepting my English C of C from Ford UK (free), but if it's a waste of time, I'll just get another one from Ford France, which I suppose I'll have to pay for.[:(]

[allanb]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]SD, your experience of registrations I suspect, is from your department who do not do registrations at the sous - prefectures it would appear.  In 12 in the Aveyron, which is a big department, they do, so its possible that 79 os the only one's who do not and 12 the only one that does although Allan suggests there could be another who do.  [/quote]Apparently, yes.  I'm in Lot-et-Garonne where there are only two sous-préfectures, one of which (Marmande) dealt with my registration.

Incidentally, language can't be the only problem for them because (as I mentioned) the original CC was in French and Dutch, and both were stamped and signed by the imprter.  Could there be some powerful anti-Belgian prejudice at work?

[Sunday Driver]

I really don't think the language of the CoC is an issue.  In the two years I've spent posting this stuff about registering vehicles over here, I've never come across an instance of refusal to accept an non-French document.