Converting a RHD car to LHD?

[Bobcat]

I want to convert my Ford Fiesta from RHD to LHD. I have all the parts I need so I have no worries technically.

However, does anyone have experience of the hurdles I am likely to face with French legislation?

Thanks for any advice.

[Bugsy]

Why ?

I once converted a early porsche speedster and the actual work involved, particularly with the pedal re-arrangment was, shall we say, extensive. It was LHD to RHD and was worth doing because of the value of the vehicle.

Re-registering in the UK was no problem but france is a whole new ballgame.

Sorry, but in my opinion, its just not worth doing.

[powerdesal]

Bobcat, you may really love your Ford Fiesta but being realistic, its just not worth the effort of opening the toolbox. Nice car and all that but why not sell it in UK and buy a left hooker in France?

[RicandJo]

I'm with Powerdesal.  Except for the 'nice car' bit but that's just a personal thing! [;-)]

[Jonzjob]

All I can say to the above is that if you do take on the job then you are going to have a hell of a job regestering it here. It would probably be cheaper and far easier to uy a new one here??

[Owens88]

Is there an equivalent to a kit car in France ?

[Anton Redman]

Thread below has details on Kitcars in France :

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1196561/ShowPost.aspx

 

[dave21478]

eh?

 

Several times now, I have bought a RHD car in UK, brought it over here, converted it with scrapyard parts and registered it with no problems at all.

I cant speak for a fiesta, but many smaller basic cars are VERY easy to convert, especially stuff from peugeot, citroen and renault as they are usually LHD shells that are modified somewhat at the factory for assembly to UK spec.

An example is many UK citroens and peugeots (AX, saxo, 106 etc)  have the brake master cylinder on the left hand side with a cryptic arangement of bars and levers running either under the dash or along the bulkhead in the engine bay that connect to the pedals on the right hand side. Bin all this and fit a LHD pedalbox from a french car in the breakers an thats that. No need to touch the master cylinder.

Change the steering rack for a LHD one, you usually need to change the column mounting, but the worst I have experienced was a folded bit of steel spot-welded in place, which I cut off and re-welded on the left.

Changing the dash is the most time-consuming part. The actual dash is a straight swap normally, but you often find some of the wires will need extending unless you faff about swapping the loom for a french one too - too much hassle imo. I just extend the relevant wires and voila.

Things to watch for are the little hassles....the wipers may well be the "wrong" way round now. Its not the end of the world to leave them as is, or you could swap them round re-drilling the scuttle and blocking the old mounts with rubber grommits - remember old stuff like minis already have the spare set of holes in the scuttle! If your car is higher spec, the electric windows might be a slight hassle as usually the drivers side (right in uk) has the "master" control that works the other windows too - moving this involves a bit of wiring effort and maybe changing the trim where the switches mount. Central locking can be a problem too as some cars have the drivers door as the "master" and the other doors as slave units, which needs more wiring to sort. Some cars may have a single rear foglight on eht wrong side, which will need moved.

Have a look in your car and see whats symetrical and what isnt - what will you need to move....then add up the costof the scrapyard parts (dont forget LHD headlights, and often wee things like shorter / longer accelerator, clutch  and speedo cables etc) then work out if its worthwhile. Ive done a few cars now and due to the cheap UK used car prices, I always make significant savings over french prices for the equivelant car.

 

As for the paperwork, I have never had a problem. Do the swap, take the car for Ct and register as normal. There is no mention of lhd / rhd on the certificates of conformity or other paperwork, so I fail to see why there would be a problem. As long as the work is done to a good enough standard to pass CT.

 

If you want a tip for a cheap LHD car....look for UK cars that have symetrical dashboards. generally they are very easy to swap. Early Discoveries and defenders....A flat dashboard with an instrument binnacle perched on top...this is easy to move to the other side. the leccy window switches ate are all on the centre console, everything else is symetrical, even the holes and fixings for the steering box etc are duplicated on both sides of the chassis. Other stuff thats easy....Citroen AX / visa. Early pug 106`s, 205`s and quite alot of commercial stuff like Master vans etc.

 

 

 

[Jonzjob]

Good grief Dave! That sounds like one hell of a load of hassle for a cheep second hand car, even if they are more here??

I think I could find better things to do, especially with all this wine round here??[:)][:D][:-))]

[dave21478]

really?

stage 1 - when in UK, buy Landrover discovery from ebay. 1994 TDi model with a dead clutch - £200

stage 2 - replace clutch - £150 and an afternoons work.

stage 3 - drive it to southern france. ferry + fuel etc about £200

stage 4 - buy 150€ of parts from a scrapyard and spend a day swapping it to LHD.

stage 5 - take for CT - 50€

stage 6 - register on french papers. CofC, etc etc - 300€ all in maybe.

stage 7 - spend a day giving it a thorough clean - 15€ in polish etc.

stage 8 - advertise it for 3600€, have the first person to ring " haggle" the price down to 3500€ and its picked up and paid for within 2 days.

stage 9 - spend the next 10 days or so answering the phone with "sorry its been sold" and wishing I had maybe advertised it for 4000€

 

Id say it was well worth it, wouldnt you?

 

[Chancer]

Ive done a few the other way round from LH to RH in the past, it would have to be something very special for me to bother now especially as I am quite at home driving a UK cack hander over here.

I agree with the comments that older cars and also continental made UK RHD models are easier.

Re old minis, that was the first one I ever did, I found I could actually turn the rack around 180 degrees east/west and re-use it, the only problem was that it reversed the steering output and trying to drive it was like one of those funny bikes in a funfair [:D]

It was such fun that we kept it that way in the workshop for a long time to trick people, if someone insisted on a loan car (which rarely happened back in the 70's and also we were working on the black) we would offer them the use of the Mini if they could prove that they were safe to drive it by practicing in the farmyard.

Editted:

Dave I said above that it would have to be something special then read your post, the margin in that is special enough for me [:)]

[dave21478]

Definately, although I did get rather lucky with the initial purchase. They normally go for a fair bit more than that just for spares, but it was a terrible ebay advert listed in the wrong category. I took a bit of a risk, but it paid off very well indeed.

 

Interesting about the mini`s rack, I realised they were symetrical, but never even considered the reversal of direction!

 

[Jonzjob]

With a Landrover, yes, but a Fiesta [+o(][+o(], I think not!

 

 

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="dave21478"]

really?

stage 1 - when in UK, buy Landrover discovery from ebay. 1994 TDi model with a dead clutch - £200

stage 2 - replace clutch - £150 and an afternoons work.

stage 3 - drive it to southern france. ferry + fuel etc about £200

stage 4 - buy 150€ of parts from a scrapyard and spend a day swapping it to LHD.

stage 5 - take for CT - 50€

stage 6 - register on french papers. CofC, etc etc - 300€ all in maybe.

stage 7 - spend a day giving it a thorough clean - 15€ in polish etc.

stage 8 - advertise it for 3600€, have the first person to ring " haggle" the price down to 3500€ and its picked up and paid for within 2 days.

stage 9 - spend the next 10 days or so answering the phone with "sorry its been sold" and wishing I had maybe advertised it for 4000€

 

Id say it was well worth it, wouldnt you?

 

[/quote]

Land rover clutch, half a day?????   I've had, and worked on, Landrovers / Range Rovers for too long, both privately and as a business. Next time I need to do a clutch (it will only be in my dreams hopefully) I will call you.

The rest of your plan above makes excellent sense.

[dave21478]

Granted, I have access to a 2-post ramp in UK, which makes life a lot easier, but a disco clutch isnt particularly hard. Infact, Id say it was a lot easier than many FWD clutch changes. There are a couple of bolts on the top of the transmission that are hard to get at, but with the prop shafts out, gearbox mounts removed and the box dropped down to rest on the crossmember, there is enough room to get in with a few long extension bars and a uni-joint. Either that or take the centre console out and go in through the gearstick hole, where they are quite easy to get at. You can then slide the whole box backwards by about 8 inches with minimal disconnecting, which leaves enough room to change the clutch.

 

 

Also, it may "only" be fiesta, but its the guys car that he obviously wants to keep. If he has the parts and the know-how, then why not change it? that way he keeps a car he knows to be reliable rather than have to try and sell it in UK (probably get a pittance for it too) and buy something here that is unknown and potentially troublesome.

The example I gave about the landrover made me a decent profit, but even doing this on small, cheap cars works out a fair bit cheaper than buying a French car. I have converted the landy, a 106 and a few wee vans. I dont do it for fun! every time it has worked out cheaper than buying the French equivelant.

 

[powerdesal]

I think its the two post lift which makes the difference, lying on your back under the motor makes it just a tad more difficult [:P]

[Bobcat]

Thanks for the feedback dave. it makes sense to me, particularly as it will only cost me the cost of retaking the CT.

Because the car is already on French plates with a Carte Gris, do you know if I need to tell the authorities who deal with the Carte Grise  that i've changed it over to LHD ?

Thanks again, I'm glad there's someone out there who's not afraid of a bit of work.

Regards

Phil

[dave21478]

I wouldnt think you would need to notify the prefecture of the change. There is no mention of LHD / RHD on the carte gris.

The only people who might want to know would be your insurers, but even they rarely ask what side the wheel is on, unlike in UK where they always ask and having it on the "wrong" side loads the premium.

 

[dandaz]

Nice thread....

 

I have done a few vw campers from lhd to rhd and now I have a rhd that I want to convert to lhd and you guessed it I chucked all the bits away...[:D]

 

I was thinking about the fiesta , it would have to be special...

 

very easy with campers cos the dash can stay...[;-)]

[tracteurtom]

Very interesting thread.  Dave in your breakdown of the Disco swap you dont mention the problems associated with the steering.  I've not looked at the Disco, but other 4x4 solid axle vehicles have these problems, and I guess the Disco also:

1) LHD / RHD steering boxes are different;

2) Front axle is different (swivel housings and panhard rod location) meaning you need to replace the lot;

3)  Panhard rod is located on the opposite side of the chassis (same side as the box for obvious reasons) so you will need to relocate / weld the bracket to the chassis.

4) Check out the diff ratio of the replacement axle, its probably different, so you will need to swap the diffs.

This is big time work, not half a day stuff and locating the bits in a breakers is difficult and when you have found the bits, they will be expensive.  Also any welding work to a 4x4 chassis needs to be done professionally and will raise a CT Inspector's attention.  Beware ! 

Bulkheads are typically LHD or RHD specific also, so there will be some messing to sort that lot out.  You may need to fabricate a reinforcement plate to go behind the pedal box.  You will need the LHD throttle and clutch cables, or plumbing if its hydraulic. 

Its not impossible, but I think Dave's take on it makes it sound a lot simpler than it is and cost effectiveness more due to luck than fact as even breakers in France charge a fortune for bits, 4x4 stuff in particular is expensive.  Probably the key is selling the vehicle when its done, you dont have to put up with the problems you didn't sort  !

[dave21478]

I got a LHD steering box, swivel hub, panhard rod and a few other wee bits and pieces from a scrapy pretty cheaply.

Thats all that had to be changed...the mountings for the steering box are duplicated on both sides of the chassis, I swapped one hub as it has the connection to the steering box, the other hub could stay as it already had the connections for the LHD steering arm, changed the panhard rod...all brackets etc are duplicated on both sides, no welding required.

Same goes for the bulkhead etc. most of the mountings for the pedal box etc are duplicated, many of the necessary holes are duplicated and blanked with grommits, there were a few holes to drill, but their locations were marked by a dimple in the steel.

The main components of these cars are designed so that there is as little difference between LHD and RHD as possible, minimising tooling and production costs, with only a limited number of ancillary stuff that is uk or europe specific.

The examples of the smaller French cars are similar in a way. The UK market cars are based on LHD shells that have a few bolt-in modifications to change them to RHD, which are easilly reversed to convert them back for French use.

[Bones]

I like the old shape Saab 900's and read recently that they really are a piece of cake to convert, no wiring worries they are made to lhd spec and the wiring is extended for the UK (I think... beyond my ken tbh).

A half decent 900 cabriolet (if you can find one with no rust) would be worth the effort, they sell for muchos in France.

[tracteurtom]

Thats interesting Dave, thanks for the info.  As I said, I've not looked closely at the LRs, but I have at Nissan 4x4s and they are not straight forward at all.  May be next time I'm in the UK I'll pick up a Disco and see if it can pay for itself, but then there is the problem of the crap diesels in them  [:(]

[dave21478]

Assuming you have the market to sell to, its worth it. Where I live, there are loads of hillbilly types, loads of hunters and loads of farmers, so 4x4`s are popular. Dont be expecting to sell an old disco to suburbanites in Montpellier!

Make sure you get the oldest you can, with the flat dashboard with the instrument binnacle perched ontop of this, as this is easilly swappable. The newer ones (from M-reg maybe? not sure) with the curved, moulded dash look like they are swappable too, bt im not sure. It apears that the binnacle is a seperate secton that can be fitted where the glovbox is on the other side, but I have never had one apart to verify.

The one I bought was this...(poor photo, sorry)

[IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/DSCF0058.jpg[/IMG]

a J-reg diesel, 3-door. Crusty, rusty and ratty, with a boot floor that was like a seive and an interior fit for keeping chickens in, but the guy who bought it was really happy!