farmer can take our land?

[kd]

we have a field of just over 1 hectare and ever since we moved into our house two and a half years ago, we have "allowed" the farmer next door to plant wheat on our land. We have no written agreement between us and receive nothing from the farmer for the "hire" of the field.

The previous owner of our house also allowed the farmer to plant crops in this field.

We were under the impression that as there is no payment by the farmer then he could not possess our land. However, another local farmer has warned us to be careful.

Does anyone know the legal situation? Can we lose our land?

Thank you in anticipation

[Deby]

Yes, he can.  e.g.

If the farmer cultivates the land and sells the wheat and pays his taxes on the wheat which he sells, this in itself gives him title to your land.

Take advice, both locally and further afield.  Local knowledge is good, but the local 'brotherhood' can cause you problems.  So asking questions point blank may well stir the merde!

This advice was given to us and we have be very fortunate to have heeded it.

Best,

Deby

[Chas]

We had a similar situation when we moved in and were advised, by the agent immobiliere, that if allowed to continue a "contract" could be deemed to exist and the farmer could obtain a permanent right to usage of the land.  We never really got the true legal position but just to be on the safe side we notified him that after that years harvest we wanted the land back. He agreed without problem and we have been mowing it ever since. 

[WJT]

[quote]We had a similar situation when we moved in and were advised, by the agent immobiliere, that if allowed to continue a "contract" could be deemed to exist and the farmer could obtain a permanent right ...[/quote]

Chas, was this for planting or for just cutting for hay? When we bought our property the farmer had been cutting the fields for many years. Prior to us signing the Notaire had the farmer sign a paper waiving any rights to the property. We have been told as long as money doesn't exchange hands it would not be a problem for us. However we were warned not to allow him to put animals on the field or to put fertiliser down. Both of which he wanted to do. To use fertiliser it could be seen as working the land and give him rights.

If I were the poster I would definitely get advise. Our advise about animals and fertiliser came from the Agent making a call to an advocate (sorry forgot the dept. name) that specialises in agriculture. He said that the book that contains the laws in this area is huge and is highly specialised and the Notaire may not understand fully. We are still not completely sure if we are protected from the farmer claiming rights even in the situation of simply cutting grass for hay three times a year.

For the original poster, chances are the farmer may be a gentleman and there is no need to worry but he may have rights. If this is the case for us in the future this is what we are counting on from our farmer even though we have addressed the issue.

 

[WJT]

Oops, just read KD's original post again. It may not be a problem with 1 hectare. I seem to remember the Notaire mentioning that a problem could arise if you have over 2 hectare's being worked by a farmer (of which our's is over two). I could be totally wrong so I am sure it would be highly recommended to look into it because as you mention your land is definitely be cultivated.

[Chocolate]

We also bought a property with land. In our case part of the land is a 3 hectare field which the previous old lady allowed a local man to plough, sow and reap on a verbal agreement. When we signed the final act the Notaire threw a fit, became ultra serious and 'summonsed' the wife of the chap immediately to sign a paper waiving all rights to the land. We felt very sorry for her but he also made her  initial every page of our contract. All very serious as I say. As there was a crop of winter wheat in, the paper stated we would allow access to the chap to reap and end all activity by the end of this month. This was in April.

Then we looked at the field after he had harvested and realised that it was an impossible task for us to return it to a sit -on mower state. The man approached us again and between us we wrote an agreement that he should continue his activity as before, but in return he would tractor mow another of our fields which is also far too rough to mower cut. We felt this was a good step as two separate people had approached us wanting to cut this field at an astronomical, (but we later learned at the going rate), price. We all signed and kept a copy of this paper. Incidently it states that he has not, nor wants, any claim on the land and that the agreement only runs for 12 months from the date of signing. It has to be renewed each year.

He has assured us that the crop is for his chickens which we thought highly unlikely. However when it was cut and rolled into those huge cylinders we could see that the wheat was very poor and the 'straw' was 90% of each bale. Definitely not a wheat baron! He is recently retired from a factory and has taken over a small farm locally, but insists that he is not a farmer. As long as we keep a grip on the agreement, and it continues to state that he has no claim on the land and has to be renewed annually at set dates, we feel that that is our best route. We could not cope with over 4 hectares of fields plus garden and small woodland otherwise. He also cuts several other people's grassed fields for hay, but they have crossed their fingers or put their heads in the sand and have a 'gentleman's' agreement. Perhaps our 'contract' is no better but we have done the best we thought would make us safe.

Really I suppose an agreement written by the Notaire each year would be best, but we are trying this first.

 

[JohnM]

Looking at this from a slightly different angle (and not knowing the legalities, so please feel free to correct me).

"If" you approached him and said "I understand that you have been good enough to cut the grass and take it away, how much do you charge, because we'd probably like you to do it for us". He will probably agree to do it for free, you then give him a bottle of something for his trouble / fuel and Bobs your uncle, a couple of years later, precedent says that you are engaging him to cut the grass and take it away for you.

 

[Feuillant]

Hello all

I posted a fairly detailed reply to this issue some time back, as we have gone through the official channels with our farmer in order to make sure there are no problems.

If anyone wants to know any further details I am very happy to supply them - they are quite long as I can provide the full text...by fax, if I can get it to work!

Our farmer was very happy to do this with us and there is 6 months notice on either side.

It cost us 200 or so euros which we split between us and it is money well spent...you are quite right, it is incredibly easy to find that you have created something legal which is binding for 2 generations just by allowing some-one to give or do something in return...our agrrement does not do this, yet we remain on friendly terms!

 

[WJT]

[quote]Hello all I posted a fairly detailed reply to this issue some time back, as we have gone through the official channels with our farmer in order to make sure there are no problems. If anyone wants to...[/quote]

Hi Feuillant, is your agreement for cultivating or for cutting hay?

By the way, we could not understand why it appeared to be so important for the farmer to continue cutting for hay, we since learned that they are really not as interested in the hay as they are the EU subsidies. Apparently every hectare counts towards how much they receive. I am not sure how it works but it must be somewhat lucrative for them.

[Feuillant]

Our arrangement is basically for him to use the land for his cows, so that includes grazing and a hay cut.

But I'm not sure whether it matters what he is using it for- what does  matter is that he gains no claim over it.

Our agreement does state what he can use the land for, however.

[Chas]

[quote]Chas, was this for planting or for just cutting for hay? When we bought our property the farmer had been cutting the fields for many years. Prior to us signing the Notaire had the farmer sign a paper ...[/quote]

He was planting, maize when we arrived but alternated between maize and sunflowers. Land was about 1250 square metres.

[Paul Bradford]

Hi,

As I understand it from an article that I saw, that by allowing the farmer to cultivate your field he is in fact doing you a service as it saves you from clearing or keeping weeds under control. If this is so, then he has the right to cultivate the land for a period of nine years. This period is transferable to sons if he dies.

I suggest that you take advice from your Notaire.

Last year we purchased about four acres that was being farmed in a similar way. I raised my concerns with the Estate Agent who told me that the farmer was 'extremely trustworthy and would not take advantage of the situation'. We were not entirely convinced and he has not touched the land since the sale. 

Regards Paul

[WJT]

Paul, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here again. Would you consider cutting grass for hay the same as planting crops? As I have mentioned before, we were told as long as he only cuts and does not put fertiliser and animals on the land that this would not be considered cultivating. We also have a letter signed by him when we purchased the property giving up any claims that he may have had prior to us purchasing. I am really hoping that this will be enough and we do not need to address this matter again. But of course we will do if it is necessary.