Change of ownership.

[Mr Wiggy]

Hi folks.

. I have just bought a French vehicle and as this is my first time, I need to know the complete list of documents that are required to register the vehicle in my name. Any sound advice will be appreciated.

[AnOther]

First things first.

1. Did you buy it in France.

2. Have you got the carte grise, crossed, signed, and dated by the previous owner.

3. Have you got a certificate de cessions fully completed and also signed by the previous owner.

4. Have you got a certificate non gage AKA situation administrative - HPI check in essence and not obligatory but sensible to demand, or you can check online yourself, preferably BEFORE buying !

[Mr Wiggy]

I have a problem with renewing the Carte Grise, It appears that the previous owner of the vehicle who is French failed to include his wife’s name on the Déclaration de Cession d’un Véhicle this has meant that I have been hit with a penalty of over 300€.

I have just returned the Déclaration back to the guy I bought the vehicle off along with a letter saying that as he needs to write out another Déclaration with his wife’s details as well as his own. He seemed to be a very reasonable person so I’m hoping that he will also pay this fine as he is responsible.

Another problem I have is would I be entitled to drive it? I do have the insurance for this vehicle but at the moment without the Carte Grise I have no proof of ownership, so how do I stand in this situation?

[EuroTrash]

I have never heard of anyone being fined because of a problem with the documentation with a car they are trying to register. Usually they just refuse to process it until it is all correct, and send you away to get it sorted. This sounds very odd. Are you sure there hasn't been some kind of misunderstanding here?

I don't see why you can't drive it as long as it's insured etc, there isn't a law that says you can only drive cars that are registered in your own name. How long is it since you bought it? You have a month (I think; could even be 2 months) in which to do the change of ownership. Within that period there is no problem, outside of that period you could in theory be fined a small fine for not having done it.

[Mr Wiggy]

Hi Euro.

After searching the departments web site it did cite the one month ruling which I found at the end of the second week so I did get all the paperwork sent off in plenty of time, It did also mention the fine for lateness, but it was no where near what they require from me as it closer to 400€. This is why I’m expecting the vendor to pay for his mistake.

[suein56]

Excuse me if I am stating the obvious but you do know that you have to pay for the privilege of registering a car here. This cost is based on the power rating of the car - even my 15 year old Clio cost me approx 140€ to register back in February - and that with cars over 10 years old being half the usual fee.

This is instead of an annual road fund licence such as is paid in the UK.

Sue

[EuroTrash]

Yes I wondered if that was it, but it sounded as if he didn't actually manage to get the change of ownership processed. They wouldn't charge him the fee if were refusing to accept the paperwork, would they.

I think Mr Wiggy needs to clarify, sounds like the wires have got crossed.

@MrW - I don't think they impose the fine at the prefecture, this would more likely be imposed if you happened to be stopped by the gendarmes and have your documents checked or something like that.

If in fact the papers were processed then this is certainly the normal registration fee, so don't write to the owner or he will think you are crazee Eenglish.

[Mr Wiggy]

Hi , Sue.

Thank you very much for that Sue. No you certainly aren't stating the obvious as you are the first to mention this fact,and this was something that I genuinely didn't know a thing about, so could this 300+ be something to do with that?

[Mr Wiggy]

Hi ET.

It was the vendor who made the mistake of not including his wife's name and signature on the declaration as she too has her name on the Carte Grise.

This is the reason it was returned to me.

[AnOther]

Unfortunately you were not without fault for not knowing both signatures

were necessary so you can't really lay it all at the sellers feet.

You can certainly ask him to pay the fine (although it would help to know what it's for exactly) but don't be too surprised if you get an emphatic NON!

You say you don't have the carte grise but you should have been given the old one which you keep until you complete the change of ownership at which time the Prefecture will give you the tear off portion at the bottom whilst you wait for the new carte grise to come in the post.

If the car is still on an old style registration number (xxxx-AB-xx) they will keep the whole thing and instead give you piece of paper called an 'Immatriculation provisoire' (or something similar) which will have a new number on it with which you can new plates made up and once again the new care grise will arrive in the post in few days.

[Mr Wiggy]

As Sue explained, it was a registration fee. Why do you think I’m asking these questions? I didn’t know that both he and his wife’s signatures should be on the declaration. As I said, I have never gone through this process of buying a vehicle before.

I didn’t say that I don’t have the carte Grise, I don’t have a Carte Grise in my Name as yet, it is still in the vendor’s name.

As for your list, I could certainly tick off all bar the last of the Items on your list, if you had met the guy and his family there wouldn’t be anything to worry about. I sincerely think that it was just an oversight on his part. In fact he was quite willing to accept the fact that payment would be authorized first thing the following morning, which it was, he was even good enough to deliver the vehicle for me after the transfer was completed; this would be over a three hour round trip.

[idun]

http://www.vos-demarches.com/demarche-carte-grise,161.html#Niort79000

I expect you have already looked at this, but all is there on your Prefectures  web site and the link should be 'live'.

You can calculate how much it will cost on the link on there, then you will see what you really owe.

Even in the UK all this has to be done rather quickly, so leaving it for a fortnight seems at best, lax.

As I keep saying, look on the service public web site when doing official business in France, most information is there including every last thing about this, and the fine can be up to 700€ so I suggest that you get on with it.

And it is clear that each titulaire must sign. This link is also live:

  https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1050

• Carte grise originale, barrée et signée par l'ancien propriétaire avec les mentions obligatoires ( vendu le...) lors de la vente. S'il y avait plusieurs cotitulaires, chacun doit l'avoir signé.

• Justificatif d'identité (original + copie), un par cotitulaire
• Justificatif de domicile (original + copie), ou en cas de cotitulaires, le justificatif de celui dont l'adresse va figurer sur la carte grise
• Procuration, si quelqu'un fait la démarche pour vous ou si un des cotitulaires la fait pour l'ensemble des cotitulaires

• Coût de la carte grise,
  en chèque (vérifiez l'ordre sur le site de la préfecture) ou parfois
  aussi en espèces ou par carte bancaire, sous réserve d'un certain
  montant (se renseigner avant)

• Preuve du contrôle en cours de validité (original + copie) si le véhicule a plus de 4 ans et n'en est pas dispensé
  Le contrôle doit avoir moins de 6 mois (2 mois si une contre-visite a été prescrite) et doit avoir été fait en France

• Formulaire cerfa n°13750*05

[dave21478]

crikey.

There is no fine for getting the paperwork wrong. It will simply be rejected by the prefecture.

If you have paid 300 or so, then you must have the carte gris in your name? Note that it is not issued on the spot any more, it will be sent by recorded delivery to your house. This really isnt clear from your posts whether you have managed to register it or not. The money is the registration costs - good luck recouping that from the previous owner. If you have paid this, then the job is likely done, so I dont see why you would need another certificate de cession.

[AnOther]

I think you need to explain a bit better what you've got and what you haven't, as Dave says there should have been no money to pay if the change of ownership was not successful, which apparently it wasn't, yet you say you were "hit with a penalty of over 300€" for what exactly ?

Without knowing what that was for then it's going to be pretty hard to advise you.

Thousands of people buy and register cars every day of the week without any problems whatsoever so there seems to be something more going on here than a simple missing cosignatory.

[EuroTrash]

You agreed it was the registration fee.

In that case it's not a penalty, it's the fee that everybody pays when they register a car. You can't expect the seller to pay it. He paid a registration when he registered the car, and when you sell it the new owner will also pay a registration fee. The UK charges £x a year road tax, France charges you a one-off registration fee.

[AnOther]

When you visit the prefecture to change the registration there are only two possible outcomes.

1. You leave with an 'immatriculation provisoire' (NOT a new carte grise) [:D]

2. You get sent away because your documents are not in order [:(]

Which one was it ?

And BTW if you had responded to the basic questions I asked in my first post then I would have gone on to list the other paperwork necessary, including the fact that you would need your chequebook, and with the CV of the car and the department I could even have told you how much it was going to cost you [;-)]

[url]http://www.carte-grise.org/tarifs_cheval_fiscal_par_region.htm[/url]

[Mr Wiggy]

As I initially said I was completely in the dark on this matter and was seeking constructive information for the registration procedure.

It transpires that the vendor omitted to include his wife’s name and signature on the Declaration because her name is also on the Carte Grise. The 300+ is the registration costs which I will send with the other documents when the new declaration has been returned. I returned the Declaration to the vendor with a note explaining what was required to complete the registration; he will then return the new declaration with his and his wife’s signatures.

This will then allow me to complete the registration of the vehicle.

Thank you Sue and Dave21478.

[AnOther]

Not sure but if both names are on the carte grise it may well be that that needs both signatures too, better to find out now than risk another 'non' at the prefecture.

I don't post for thanks but deliberately phrasing a reply which effectively dismisses the advice I've given, and continue to give, is a bit ungracious.

Perhaps if you'd been clearer with the facts in your own posts the thread would have concluded somewhat earlier, if indeed it has concluded!

[idun]

Idun's post included:

Carte grise originale, barrée et signée par l'ancien propriétaire avec les mentions obligatoires ( vendu le...) lors de la vente. S'il y avait plusieurs cotitulaires, chacun doit l'avoir signé.

Yes, it is really very clear from the Service Public Fr website. For the french and anyone else who lives in France or deals with stuff french.

Why this site seems to be royally ignored amazes me. Would that I had had anything at all like it all those years ago, when information was HARD TO GET HOLD OF and sometimes felt like mission impossible.

[nomoss]

[quote user="idun"]Idun's post included:

Carte grise originale, barrée et signée par l'ancien propriétaire avec les mentions obligatoires ( vendu le...) lors de la vente. S'il y avait plusieurs cotitulaires, chacun doit l'avoir signé.

Yes, it is really very clear from the Service Public Fr website. For the french and anyone else who lives in France or deals with stuff french.

Why this site seems to be royally ignored amazes me. Would that I had had anything at all like it all those years ago, when information was HARD TO GET HOLD OF and sometimes felt like mission impossible.

[/quote]

Maybe because some people, even after several years here, can't even f@rt in French[:D]