What will you live on

[Iceni]

I have been getting some very nice PM's which seem to think that I am the font of all knowledge - well I am not and this site probably is .

I have decided to say one thing - IF you come to France and you need to start or build a business, please make sure you have some savings.  We watch the worry on the faces of those who live by the wire, strained and in a deep panic whenever another bill they did not think they would get for another type of cottisation arrives.

Savings are important, it is harder here if you have nothing.  Many UK businesses fail within 3 years, they have free help and advice from Business Link and often free training. It is harder here if you don't speak the language.

PS - John says for harder read impossible?

[Teamedup]

What excellant advice Iceni.

I always suspect that many who have said, come hell or high water, I will live in France and do this that or the other, believe that words of such wisdom are just sour grapes and to put them off.

If only one person takes such good advice, this will have been a very worthwhile post.

[Val_2]

I often think that had we known what we were letting ourselves in for starting again in France, we probably would never have ever considered it. I'm not too proud to admit that we have had to face hard times here even though we have always had more work than we can handle,but the money does not come regularly when you are self employed even though the charges do and if you start to dip into your savings, the fisc start to probe too!! People make the mistake of thinking that their savings will last forever, not true. Take the replacement of a vehicle or tools needed, an accident and not being able to work- its always there at the back of your mind and you do not get help just like that ,if anything after paying all your dues for a long time. Truthfully, we are worse off in real terms that we ever were in the UK doing the same work,but then 14 hours/7 days per week is no good for man or beast,only the tax man. People who think they can just relocate here without any work or get away working on the black and not having any health cover are living in dreamland and will find somewhere along the line it all blows up in their faces. When I speak to local people who are self employed here, they all have the same axe to grind and that is there is never any let-up from paying and paying as soon as you receive any money and if you are late paying, they automatically slap 10% interest on it.  Iceni - you have made an important posting and I just hope some of these idiots will take note and realise they are not coming to Utopia, just another place that is ready and willing to take your money as fast as you earn it.  Before anyone makes a comment about how bitter I sound, I will say that yes, I do get bitter when I read how people think they are going to buck the system and get away with anything they can whilst there is my husband,several other contributors on this forum who are self employed in the same business and the rest of the working population who have no choice and work to support their families. At the end of the day though even with the lure of big money now in the UK, I would still never trade in our life here, there is no price on what we have achieved and the value that holds for us.

 

[Maddie]

I totally agree and am now one of those stupid people in a position of being terrified about lack of money etc.  When we arrived my old man had a job here to come to so we had an income (and still do have) and did not have to rely on income from a "gite" which seemed to make us the exception (although we do have half a house which we can rent out!).  But the costs of mortgage, moving, decorating, renovating and all the other stuff that crops up means that we have no surplus at all and all the savings are pretty much gone.  I deeply regret the day we came here and would give anything to be able to return to the UK.  Too late  - can't afford to do that either! I thought we were fairly well prepared as we'd had a house in France before but nothing can prepare you for the anxiety and sleepless nights.   The only ones to benefit from this move are my 2 dogs who now have me at home full time and 4 acres to run around in and the removal company! Oh and the French tax man!

[Glenn]

Apologies in advance if i upset anyone by this but...

Is there such a huge difference between the French tax/cotisations and the UK system?

In the UK we all pay very high council taxes, tax on diesel/petrol, national insurance etc etc.

These in France are a lot lower but the cotisations are higher. (But isn't that what pays for the superior healthcare etc that attracts so many?)

So surely the net effect is one of little difference?

As some (french) friends told me, "yes, you pay high taxes in Britain but under a different name."

Where the savings are made is on housing. A detached house anywhere in the South East of England is going to be easily £250,000 with the appropriate mortgage payments. Houses in France are a lot less (and bigger with more land) and mortgage payments are much lower.

Someone now tell me i've got this all wrong?!!?

[Val_2]

Sooty. Relevent points, but here in France you must always have money sitting in your bank account. There is none of this "the cheque is in the post" excuse,cheques even for supermarket shopping are usually cashed within 48hrs of receipt and nearly every one demands direct debit here in France although you do not have to comply,but it does make life easier.All these payments have to be in the bank for the date due as overdrafts are not given lightly either. Take a self employed person here,on top of several compulsory charges there is also accountants fees,taxe professionelle to the commune, apprenticeship contributions even if you have no apprentices,personal health mutuelle contributions and several others which crop up during the year. I don't remember paying out for hardly any of these in the UK, just the normal income tax,VAT and NI and that was that.Do employees/self employed in the UK pay the equivalent of ASSEDIC from their wages? I don't think so which is why people get angry when those who can't be bothered to work are taking their hard earned money for which ASSEDIC pays unemployment benefit. Our weekly bill is over £70 just for this alone. On top of this, parents are expected to pay for the children to be in education here well into their twenties which usually entails providing a car,money to live on and a place to stay. Salaries are huge in the Uk compared to France and the property prices are relevent to that,but no matter how hard you try,credit in France is not given out lightly or without concrete proof that you can easily pay it back and still have enough to live on. Lets just hope that these postings can make people realise what they may be getting themselves into before they commit everything.

[Russethouse]

Recently there was an article stating that 'middle income earners' now pay over 50% in tax in the UK , one way or the other.

I think the big difference is that in the UK (self employed) we pay in arrears on what we have actually earned. It seems to me that in some cases in France, your income is estimated and you pay taxes etc on that whether or not you are earning any thing like that amount. It might take several years to get the 'correct' amount in which time you could have gone under ?

The price of property is a big difference, but after all you can only sit in one chair at one table at a time !

Not much point in having a great house if you are so worried about making ends meet that you can't sleep at night

[Glenn]

"I think the big difference is that in the UK (self employed) we pay in arrears on what we have actually earned. It seems to me that in some cases in France, your income is estimated and you pay taxes etc on that whether or not you are earning any thing like that amount. It might take several years to get the 'correct' amount in which time you could have gone under ?"

I've also heard about paying cotisations in advance in France - a major difference to the UK that can have a serious impace on a business.

I'm also self employed and want to be 110% certain before i make the permanent move to France, which is why these posts are so helpful.

[Will]

Sooty

I don't think you have got it wrong really. When you actually get into the French tax and social security system it is true that when you compare like for like, it doesn't seem to cost that much more overall. Val and Gay are right in the points they make - in France one is paying all the time, regardless of when the income arrives, whereas the British system is generally paid for in arrears and works on credit.

I do think that saying the cost of housing, council taxes etc is lower is a bit of a generalisation. That may be so in much of France but there are very wide regional variations. Other essential housing costs like electricity, heating etc are higher in France, and not just because people buy bigger houses that take more heating.

The idea seems very widespread that you can live better, for less cost, in France but most of us who actually live and work here know that it is not as straightforward as that. It's difficult to point to many things and say 'ah, but this is dearer in France than in Britain', which is why social security charges take such a bashing as they are one of the identifiable heavy expenses. But the way things work in the two countries is so different - even something as apparently straightforward as a weekly family shopping trip - that it is very difficult to make direct or meaningful comparisons.

[Maddie]

[quote]Recently there was an article stating that 'middle income earners' now pay over 50% in tax in the UK , one way or the other.I think the big difference is that in the UK (self employed) we pay in arrea...[/quote]

Quite ...and I haven't even got that great a house!

[Iceni]

Life for the small business person in UK (provided he is employed by the Ltd Co in which he/she controls the shares)  is so much simpler - of course it is, I speak the language and have spent a lifetime "understanding" how it all works

NI - for some years has been entirely voluntary but one day Prudence Brown may wake up

Corp Tax - nil or 20% - and so much is tax allowable

Income Tax - play the dividend game correctly, don't go into the 40% bracket and it's easy-peasy

VAT - keep on top of your debtors and again no prob - and C&E gives a refund if necessary

From what I have seen so far in France no business person in his right mind would ever leave the UK - cotisations up front, no VAT refunds etc etc, so methinks it must be something other than money that lures ? 

I realise that this is a bit of a wander but the posts comparing levels of tax etc in UK vs France are a bit misleading, maybe for the employed wage slave but if you run yr own business I think not.

John