proffession liberale?

[hoverfrog]

I know this has been done to death here before, but I've been trawling through all the posts and need a quick answer!

1/ If I do part-time work (min of 4 days a month), probably using a portage company, for a non-french employer will I need to have a SIRET number? Computer programming so I guess I don't need to register with the Chambre de metiers.

2/ If I'm doing freeelance what I was doing (fulltime) in the Uk for the same company is there a possibility of being classed as a subsidiary company?(with all the overheads and paperwork that entails )

As far as tax is concerned that would be covered by the portage company - and I'd pay in France, so I'd obviously expect a higher hourly rate than I was getting in the UK as an employee.

3/ Are there any other pitfals with this arrangement?

.

[Will]

I'm not sure if computer programming would be classed as profession liberale, but if you called yourself a consultant you probably would be. Profession liberale doesn't really mean a lot in itself, it just governs the organisation to which you affilliate for health care, retirement fund etc. The Chambre de Metiers only looks after trades, i.e. primarly manual work, for other businesses you register via the Chambre de Commerce (if appropriate) or direct through URSSAF or, for a few types of business, the Impôts.

I know nothing about portage so can't advise you on that.

From my own experience, if you register in France you get a Siret number automatically, you cannot trade without one. If you set up a French subsidiary of a UK company that also has to have a Siret number. You will pay employee social security charges if you are employed by the subsidiary company, but beware - somebody has to pay employer charges, which amount to about 40% of the employees' salaries - and you can't be paid less than the SMIC. If the employer is a UK company that is willing to foot this bill - fine. If not, you could be in the merde as the French system will want to get the money from you, on top of what you have paid as an employee.

[Coco]

I agree with Bill on this one, in response to question 2.  Last year I fell foul of this with URSSAF.  I worked for my old company in the UK as a freelance from France.  URSSAF classed me as a subsidiary of the company, set me up with a siret number and I had all my own (employee) payments to make as well as employer contributions of 40% and Assedic (employer) contributions of 10%!  I had already taken an 11% increase in salary from my UK employer (equivalent to UK employer's contributions; I couldn't really charge him more than he was paying for me in the UK) but was quite shocked to discover just how much more I had to pay here.  Even with the 11% increase I was still left with 50% less salary than I would have received in the UK.

[hoverfrog]

that's the sort of thing I was hoping to avoid!

According to the Portage Société you use their siret number, and as the contract is effectively between them and the UK company (you have a separate contract with the Société) it seems OK.

I'm surprised no-one else has tried using Portage (or if they have they're keeping very quiet!)

Now all I have to do is get the UK company to agree to the contract (which is under French law!), oh and they want the following:

1/ La convention de portage ainsi que la fiche individuelle sont à nous renvoyer accompagnées des éléments suivants :

- CV + photocopies diplômes et certifications (OK so far)

- photocopie attestation de sécurité sociale (I guess E111 will do for now?)

- photocopie feuille de calcul Assedic salaire de référence (celui qui a servi au calcul de votre allocation) (may be a problem - except I'm not claiming benefit so may be immaterial)

- justificatif de domicile (haven't had an EDF bill yet, but the bank were happy because we'd bought a house so I'm sure we can sort something out)

- RIB (no problem)

2/ Pour chaque nouveau client, vous communiquerez à votre attachée de carrière son numéro SIRET.

Sans cet accord préalable tout contrat sera refusé.

(Agh. There had to be a catch - they allow foreign clients but what if they don't have a siret number??? Apparently this particular Portage Société allow clients from everywhere except USA and Canada because of the insurance, so there must be a way round it!)

3/ Le contrat de prestation de services est à nous retourner signé par le client pour accord.

(well when I've provided them with a translation they may or may not!!)

[BJSLIV]

Will an E111 work for Portage?

Two problems strike me. Firstly if you are working then an e111 doesn't really cover you, and secondly from a purely practical point of view they will be deducting your social contributions, and need to know where to send the money.

No you can't have it for yourself!

[Will]

The big problem with the E111 is that it is obsolete, having been replaced in most EU countries by the European Health Card, which does cover workers posted overseas. UK is stuck in the world of paper E111s until the end of next year.

It used to be possible to use E111 for periods of up to one year when working in another EU country. However, at least in France, the authorities often required it to be backed up by E101, which your employer (or in some cases yourself if self-employed) could get from Newcastle. That's because all E111 shows is that you know where your post office is, whereas E101 is a form that shows you are entitled to health care. E101, and E128, another form for overseas workers, are being superseded by the new card. E111 and E101 used to be acceptable by many prefectures as evidence of health cover when applying for carte de sejour, and you could get a French social security number from most CPAMs on the strength of them. I don't know how the new system affects this though.

[hoverfrog]

I'd forgotten about the other E forms...

What makes it all more complicated now is that I'll start working for an overseas client before we move and the Portage scheme only lets you start work 2 days after a new contract is in place! I can't set up the Portage until we move though

Perhaps I'd better invoice directly to begin with

[Jo53]

[quote]I know this has been done to death here before, but I've been trawling through all the posts and need a quick answer!1/ If I do part-time work (min of 4 days a month), probably using a portage company...[/quote]

As I understand it you will be employed by the portage company, not your UK company. So you could not be classed as a subsidiary of that UK company. The whole point of portages, I thought, is that you are salaried. So you are not a prof liberale at all as far as the system is concerned.

The portage society is going to be taking some of your money, so why not make them work for it and get them to explain all the admin.

As for the pitfalls of portage, I read an interesting site about it but have lost the link. Do a google.fr and you will find stuff. The gist of what I read was that they can be good, but you pay more social charges than you do as a freelance, and there may not be that much benefit in salaried status. But if you only have one client portage could be a lifesaver, because it prevents you from being classed as an employee or subsidiary of that company. Also read the smallprint - can they sack you if you don't bring in enough money, for example.

Jo

[hoverfrog]

[quote]As I understand it you will be employed by the portage company, not your UK company. So you could not be classed as a subsidiary of that UK company. The whole point of portages, I thought, is that you...[/quote]

ouch! I didn't realise that

I'm probably only going to be working 4 days a month - with occasional bursts of activity! so may run into problems with lack of funds.

The original société I spoke to was geared up for technical stuff and only took a small cut from the total but they don't handle canadian clients because of their insurance, so I will probably have to take a larger cut to my take-home and go elsewhere.

[Jo53]

There may not be a minimum that you have to bring in. But some portages do stipulate one, according to the sites I read. It's just a question of finding a portage that suits you.

Jo