Working in UK seasonally, but having property in France?

[amandasattic]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this forum so apologies if I am asking a question that has already been asked but would love some feedback on the following:

Myself and my husband plan to sell our house in Scotland and work as caravan wardens in the UK (we have done this before and loved it), we are both in our mid thirties and have tried the wardening life and mortgage settling down life, and warden life wins hands down. I do however want a 'brick built home' as a base/place to retire to eventually and due to high house prices we cannot afford to buy a house outright in the UK, so our plan is to buy in France, we will have approx 30-40 thousand euros to spend and don't mind renovating (not sure where though, any advice would be gratefully received). We love small towns which are vibrant. lively and have kept a sense of their history, but we also love countryside, sea, rivers, mountains etc.

Does anyone work in the UK as wardens/or or for at least 6 months of the year in the UK but only have a property in France? Not sure about tax implications, healthcare provisions etc so would love to hear from others who are actually doing what we plan to do. We have been to France before and travelled from the North to the South in a clapped out old campervan, and it was great experience. We were also thinking about Portugal but are worried about the language barrier, we know a little bit of French (enough to get by) we know we could pick it up easier than Portuguese (we think)

Any advice would be greatfully received

[tinabee]

If you are living and working in the UK for more than 6 months then AFAIK you will be classed as UK resident for tax purposes.

Have a look here for some guidelines on residency status:

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/liability-income-tax/residency-status/

 

 

[AnOther]

Best of luck in finding a property in your price range. There may be some available in some areas but will likely need the same amount spending to bring them up to an acceptable habitable standard.

It' a widely held misconception that merely spending 183 days in France makes you tax resident, it does not, you have to take other factors into consideration too.

THIS article I think is about as precise and accurate as it gets and from it you will see that as your only property would be the Franch one that fact alone could possibly see you deemed French resident irrespective of how many days you spent here.

If you do remain UK resident then health cover in France will be by EHIC but do remember that this is limited and you would be well advised to have additional insurance.

[amandasattic]

Thanks very much for your replies. I think the plan would be to renovate a property a bit at a time over a few years and once it was up to scratch perhaps look at a permanent move to France, or to even get employment working on campsites/caravan sites as wardens over in France as our French language should be reasonable good after a few years. The only reason for working in the UK initially is because I know one of the most difficult things to achieve in another country is finding employment to sustain life, it certainly isn't easy in our own country at the moment so it would be twice as hard to find work over in France, especially with the language barrier.

Any advice on areas to explore which have potential property to renovate would be great.

Thanks again, amanda

[Clair]

Start with this site: Le bon coin

(click on a region, then select ventes immobilières from the second field at the top. You can sort the list by price.)

[Will]

[quote user="AnOther"]...you will see that as your only property would be the Franch one that fact alone could possibly see you deemed French resident irrespective of how many days you spent here.

If you do remain UK resident then health cover in France will be by EHIC but do remember that this is limited and you would be well advised to have additional insurance.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. It's the 'principal residence' that counts as far as France is concerned; if you spent most of the year out of France, in one or more rented houses, or accommodation provided with jobs, it is unlikely that your French house would be counted as your main home. Remember, even so, that you can be regarded as tax resident in more than one country - in such cases your tax position is determined by double taxation agreements, so, contrary to popular belief, you have no real choice in where you are taxed.

As far as health cover is concerned, if you spend most of the time in UK, particularly if you are employed there, you will come under the NHS and be liable for NI contributions. You will indeed be covered by EHIC when in France. Like all E forms, the 'limitation' is that you get the same level of cover as other French residents, i.e. a refund of a percentage (typically 65%-70%) of costs. This is where additional insurance comes in. Though this might be difficult to find, as your situation goes rather beyond the scope of travel insurance and, without a French social security number, you are unlikely to be able to get French top-up insurance.

[AnOther]

I agree Will but I'm guessing that working as wardens could well entitle them to free onsite accommodation which could fall foul of this:

"For any property to be viewed as your “residence” it must be available

for your use, thus not rented out and it must either belong to you or

be a property you rent with a “formal” rental agreement."

I admit I may be painting a worst case scenario but better to be aware of all the angles and potential pitfalls upfront don't you think ?

EDIT: You can get 'off the shelf' EHIC top up insurance HERE

[bigears]

my advice is not to get into the position of  making a declaration in france and the uk, keep it simple.  The french tax man will not be aware/interested in you if you do as you say, 6 months in uk 6 months in france.  Technically you should only stay in france for a 3 months continuous stretch, to comply with this go back to uk for a quick visit or cross the nearest french border for a day trip..  You can get uk travel insurance that will cover you quite legitimately in france, although at a cost.  The top up refered to in the last post I would think is not applicable to you as a uk resident.  You could have a most satisfying life style.

[AnOther]

[quote user="bigears"]The top up referred to in the last post I would think is not applicable to you as a uk resident.[/quote]On the contrary bigears, it is precisely the target market [;-)]

EXCLUSIVE HEALTHCARE’s EHIC HOLIDAY TOP-UP PLAN offers exceptional benefits if you have a holiday home in France or are taking an extended vacation.

Subject to a minimum of 7 days and a maximum of 360 days, you can choose any period of cover that fits your holiday plan starting and terminating on the dates you select.

Days purchased will be charged at the standard daily rate.

The EHIC HOLIDAY TOP-PLAN is a pure medical insurance plan that is complementary to the French NHS cover using the EHIC."

[bigears]

forgive my ignorance on this issue.

[Will]

I wouldn't get too worked up about the residence issue - it normally only becomes a potential problem when you are avoiding something, such as bigears seems to be advocating. In this case there would in fact be nothing to lose from making a tax declaration in France as with no French income there will be no extra tax payable, and potentially something to gain - establishing some form of 'residence' would be useful if it is the intention to make France your permanent home in the future.

However, as bigears says, nobody is likely to be too bothered in this case, but that doesn't make it legal, or right for all smilar situations.

The insurance linked by AN Other looks ideal for this situation. It is from a specialist provider, and policies like that are not going to be available from travel insurance providers or French high-street agents.

[bigears]

Will, I'm advocating keeping things simple not doing anything illegal.  Can you tell me the benefits of filling out a tax form (with a nil return) in france if you are a tax resident of the uk? 

[Will]

Can't think of any benefits if you are solely UK tax resident. In the case under discussion the people may be considered fiscally resident in France as well as UK (I don't think they would, but if applying ANOther's criteria, and their French house is deemed to be their main home, I accept that is perfectly possible). In such a case, establishing French tax residence could benefit them in capital gains issues and could also prove useful in accumulating the necessary five years residence for joining the French health system. I've seen people who have lost out quite comprehensively in financial terms in such respects due to having lived under the radar.

I am not a tax expert, but being one of those who has dual fiscal residence I am very much aware of these issues.

[amandasattic]

Wow, that's a lot of advice, thanks so much to everyone for their input.

I think initially the property we buy in France will be a 'holiday home' until such time that we find employment in France as we are not near retirement age. Ideally once we have grasped the language we would love to work in a caravan/campsite in France so then we would become 'proper' residents. We will be using a relatives home address in the UK for mailing/insurance purposes initially until we settle down in France.

Working and living in both countries does seem a little complicated with regards tax etc, but I suppose like everything we will learn as we go along. I do however not want to fall foul of the law and live 'illegally' anywhere so may need to get further legal advice from tax office or similar body to see where we stand.

Thanks again for all your help. Any pointers into a good area which has loads of camping sites would be great :-)

[tinabee]

[quote user="amandasattic"] Any pointers into a good area which has loads of camping sites would be great :-)[/quote]

There are many French companies who have campsites across the country, here are three that show their sites on maps - it will give you an idea of the areas that are most popular:

http://www.village-center.com/

http://www.aquaticamp.com/us/camping-france.php

http://www.siblu.fr/france/