Autoentrepreneur and health cover

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

I have frequently seen doubts raised about how feasible it is to get health cover in France based purely on being an autoentrepreneur (AE). My own experience is that it is perfectly feasible. I would be interested to find out if anybody knows of a case where someone has been denied health cover because their only income has been via AE.

For background information, I registered as an AE at the beginning of last year having moved to France a couple of months before. I had not registered an E106, or similar form, so the AE registration was my only route into the system. I paid cotisations for the first three quarters of last year. Last summer I was diagnosed with a small bowel tumour that required a total of seven weeks in hospital, plus home nursing and sundry tests. All these costs were met by my caisse based solely on my AE status. I am now registered with 2 ALDs (long-term illnesses) which qualify for 100% reimbursement -- the cancer and a pre-existing heart condition. It took a while to get my attestation and suchlike sorted out, although I believe that this was due to the large number of AE registrations in early 2009 swamping the system. I am still waiting for my carte vitale, but all my reimbursements are going through smoothly.

[Sunday Driver]

The doubts appear have arisen because people are thinking it's too good to be true that Brits can obtain access to health cover on small incomes.  Many of the 320,000 registered autoentrepreneurs will probably be obtaining their income from a single source, so unless someone can point to legislation which specifically discriminates against EU citizens in the same situation, why should they be denied their rights to healthcover?

 

[NormanH]

There may be some confusion with the hours  it is necessary to work to gain the right to health cover  if you are a salaried worker:

Pour avoir droit au remboursement de vos soins pendant un an, en cas

de maladie ou de maternité, vous devez justifier :

• avoir
  travaillé au moins soixante heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au
  moins égal à soixante fois le montant du SMIC horaire, pendant un mois
  civil ou trente jours ;
• ou avoir travaillé au
  moins 120 heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au moins égal
  à 120 fois le montant du SMIC horaire, pendant trois mois civils ou un
  trimestre ;
• ou avoir travaillé au moins 1 200
  heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au moins égal à 2 030 fois le
  montant du SMIC horaire, pendant douze mois.

These conditions are n't imposed on autoentrepreneurs .

Whether they should be  or will be is a matter for discussion and speculation.

[Will]

I think Norman has hit the nail on the proverbial.

In theory, somebody could set up as an autoentrepreneur, do a small job for a friend and declare that job, then gain access at no further cost - in terms of money or labour - to the French health service for a further 33 months. That's grossly unfair on those who are salaried, particularly part-timers.

I don't think it was foreseen, because the scheme was surely set up to enable those already in the system to legally and simply earn some extra money, not to provide a cheap way into the system for those outside it (probably mainly foreigners). That's not a slur on our Albert, who I am sure has put in a fair number of hours.

Frankly, I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed yet. It makes a further mockery of 'égalité'.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Will"]I think Norman has hit the nail on the proverbial.

In theory, somebody could set up as an autoentrepreneur, do a small job for a friend and declare that job, then gain access at no further cost - in terms of money or labour - to the French health service for a further 33 months. That's grossly unfair on those who are salaried, particularly part-timers.

I don't think it was foreseen, because the scheme was surely set up to enable those already in the system to legally and simply earn some extra money, not to provide a cheap way into the system for those outside it (probably mainly foreigners). That's not a slur on our Albert, who I am sure has put in a fair number of hours.

Frankly, I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed yet. It makes a further mockery of 'égalité'.
[/quote]

I doubt that it will be addressed any time soon as the income from legitimising so much of the previous black economy far outweighs any benefits being paid out to those to whom AE is their single source of income. Remember there are no additional healthcare costs to the state for those now declaring a hithereto hidden activity just additional revenue.

All of the advertising and promotion of AE, which includes the TV reports on TF1, FR3 etc highlight the new generation of young AE's starting up their first business albeit often the more photogenic young ladies but one was English Hooray Henry type wearing tweeds and distinctly ginger as well [:P]

Maybe in time they will put some kind of limits on it but the last thing they currently want to do is discourage new start-ups, look at what that has resulted in until now!

I suspect that AE's will feel more secure once the Carte Vitales arrive, has anyone actually yet recieved one?

[AnOther]

I have spoken out on this issue in the past and remain sceptical.

I wonder what percentage of the 320,000 AE's have been established by

French citizens who are of course entitled to health care anyway.

I'm sure there is no legislation discriminating between EU citizens however since when did that prevent a government from acting unilaterally and outwith the law, the UK have been doing it on more than one front for years.

Albert, I didn't think you paid cotisations on AE, just a fixed percentage based on the type of activity, maybe that is what you meant ?

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Ernie,

Under AE you pay cotisations which are calculated as a percentage of turnover. That doesn't stop them being cotisations.

On your other point, I would expect the vast majority of AEs to be French citizens. In fact, that is one reason why they probably aren't too worried about the relatively small number of foreigners getting in on the act. If the AE scheme is having the effect they wanted then a tiny number of people getting health care on the cheap could be acceptable as collateral damage.

However, I didn't start this thread to discuss the rights & wrongs of the current rules or what might happen in the future; both of these have already been done to death. I'm really interested to know if anybody has actually been told that they can't get health care via AE. So far I haven't heard of any.

[Will]

I don't think it's a matter of people being refused health cover as AEs. Like you I haven't heard any substantiated examples of this. It's more a case of having applications for social security numbers (and cartes vitales) delayed because the officials don't know how to deal with the situation.

I am sure that most of those who have started businesses under this regime were already in the French system, so the problem didn't arise for the majority. You don't have to be French to come into this category. Mrs W was already in the system due to her part-time salaried employment when she began her AE business; she was one of the first people, and quite possibly the first English national, to do this and her application was processed very quickly. She does enough hours in her day job to qualify for health cover, but if she was contracted to do fewer hours she would not. So if a person could get full health cover for three years by just registering an AE business and making a single declaration we would be, to say the least, somewhat miffed, and would be keen to see the AE system brought into line with other employment regimes.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Will"]I don't think it's a matter of people being refused health cover as AEs. Like you I haven't heard any substantiated examples of this. It's more a case of having applications for social security numbers (and cartes vitales) delayed because the officials don't know how to deal with the situation.

So if a person could get full health cover for three years by just registering an AE business and making a single declaration we would be, to say the least, somewhat miffed, and would be keen to see the AE system brought into line with other employment regimes.

[/quote]

But surely that is exactly what is happening.

[Will]

Is it though? I know it is possible in theory, but, like Albert, I would very much like to know if it is actually happening or is just an urban myth.

[woolybanana]

One of the unforeseen consequences of AE is that workers are being laid off my small companies but being employed if the become AEs. The companies pay out less overall and workers take home more.

[Will]

French employment law is such that it is very difficult, and very costly, to lay anybody off. So unless there is fraud and deception taking place (and we all know that doesn't exist in honest countries like France with traditional values) I find the above rather hard to believe.

If it was possible, it could make sense. It would certainly appeal to Sarko. But again, re-employing people currently in secure jobs on indeterminate contracts rather goes against the job-for-life culture in France.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Will"]Is it though? I know it is possible in theory, but, like Albert, I would very much like to know if it is actually happening or is just an urban myth.

[/quote]

What is clear is that it is possible to obtain health cover simply from the AE.  Albert is himself evidence of this.

He however declared several trimestres (I think about 8000 euros)

However what we don't know is anybody who has only declared  once has been refused or accepted.

I see no reason as things stand for a refusal

[Chancer]

[quote user="Will"]French employment law is such that it is very difficult, and very costly, to lay anybody off. So unless there is fraud and deception taking place (and we all know that doesn't exist in honest countries like France with traditional values) I find the above rather hard to believe.

[/quote]

It is happening all around Will, people are given licensement economique, the enterprise reduces its overheads then employs them as AE sub-contractors, bu critically only if they register as AE.

Do a search for jobs and see how many companies are advertising jobs for Auto-Entrepeneurs only.

There have been several programs on the box about it, most are pi55ed off about it, some are happy with the extra dosh in their pocket every month without looking at the long term effects, mainly the younger more enterprising ones that in another country would have gone self employed anyway.