procedure for chasing builders/ Re. lizfir.../new helpdesk

[chris_lohierchris lohier]

Hi there!

I posted a mail yesterday asking about the viability of setting up an helpdesk. And this is exactly where it can come up handy. The idea is to act as what is called a "Maitre d'oeuvre". This means that the company I would like to set up would deal with all this kind of problems and could deal with turnkey full building projects as well as small renovation little jobs or maintenance. That is what most people use in france. The idea is that for a fee based on a percentage of the total price of a job we handle whatever part from start to finish and ensure the job is done and is done respecting all the client's specs. the client pays the fee AFTER full completion of the job. Being in the position of a maitre d'oeuvre allows you to put the necessary pressure on for instance, builders that you KNOW. and this is the key: You need to know which company to employ and only experience in the field will allow you to know that. As stated, nothing such as SIRET/SIREN/VAT reg. is an insurance that you are dealing with a sound company.it merely proves that it probably exists.

A bit of advice: one should never accept to pay something upfront, but you can agree to pay what is called "situation" (can be weekly, monthly...) which is a payment based on the percentage of the job actually achieved during the period.

I would love to get more answers Re. viability of my project taking into account this message.

Many thanks!

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Hi there! I posted a mail yesterday asking about the viability of setting up an helpdesk. And this is exactly where it can come up handy. The idea is to act as what is called a "Maitre d'oeuvre". Thi...[/quote]

This is exactly what I tried to do. Plenty of work, couldn't find any reliable Artisans to do it. Ending up re registering to do it myself.

Good luck if you decide to try, where are you, I may be able to pass some clients your way.

 

[Catalpa]

We signed with a local building cooperative (southern Manche, 50) - all French registered, insured artisans with a Maitre d'O in the office - as we believed that this would be the most efficient way for the different trades to dovetail during our renovation works.

Early experience suggested that the Maitre d'O was useless: wouldn't confirm start dates, length of time for the project etc. He left the cooperative / or was 'let go' about March time. Six months of work on, we now realise that the problem was artisan-based - specifically the stonemason - not Maitre d'O based. From our experience and expanding on what (I think ) Nick says, if you can't get reliable artisans, you (as a Maitre d'O) can schedule and chase all you like but you won't end up with satisfied customers. 

I'm sure there's a superb opportunity for exactly the type of 'helpdesk' you are proposing but I too think your problem will be getting the artisans to work the way you and your clients want them to. If you can find the artisans and project manage them and their material requirements efficiently... well, can I buy shares in your company ???

[LesFlamands]

Local Maitre d'Oeuvres basically intimidate one man band Artisans into working for them as required. The Artisans really have no choice or their local reputations will be ruined and they won't get any work. I've also seen a local M d'O turn a job away (because the client was not going to be ripped off on the price) and then he made sure that one locally would work on the job independantly. 

I run a general building company where I effectively operate as the M d'O. and this seems to be a much better way of operating from the clients point of view. I realise that this is not the French way, but I think that a team that works together all the time, rather than a miscellaneous bunch of subbies, produce a better quality job. 

We always walk away from a job if the client wants to employ a project manager as I yet to come across a non builder who can manage a renovation job. I worked as a project manager on television broacast engineering projects in the UK. When I came to France I spent 10 years 'on the tools' before I started running jobs.

As an aside , Chris, I don't agree with your view on payments. If you want the builder to do a good job, all you achieve by crippling his cashflow is the risk that he will cut corners to save money.

[Val_2]

We too work as Charles does, everything is handled by ourselves from start to finish. Someone recently contacted us to take on a project under such a Md'O and the fool could not understand the false economies in using second choice quality roof slates as against good first choice which is what we only ever use and our customers demand, even the property owner couldn't understand his logic plus the fact he hasn't been able to find any artisans for over a year to start the project which tells us something if no one will work for him. To be honest as well,some of these M d'O don't know one end of a spirit level from the other!!present company excused.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Local Maitre d'Oeuvres basically intimidate one man band Artisans into working for them as required. The Artisans really have no choice or their local reputations will be ruined and they won't get any...[/quote]

Just picking up on one of Chris's points in the OP and Charles's response;

Charles and Val are not banks. Why on earth should they lend their clients tens of 000's of Euro's, which is effectively what they would be doing if you expect them not to get paid until the end of the job?

If the client has the money (and if he hasn't, then you should be very careful to start with!), then it is perfectly reasonable and normal (in France) for the client to pay up-front. Here, Artisans survive or fail on their reputations, nottheir bank accounts! You will get plenty of work if you charge nothing, but will you survive on 10% of ****** all?

There are of course thieves in this business in this country, like everywhere else. It doesn't pay (any of us, or you) to tar the rest of us with that particular brush. And that is from someone who has been ripped off by a Builder charging a deposit & doing a runner...

 

[Val_2]

Absolutely Nick. With high social charge bills arriving regularly every quarter to be paid or hefty interest added on, no way would we finance anything until the Md'O decides to pay us,to say nothing of paying the employees and suppliers who demand direct debit payments at the end of each month anyway. We havn't run a building business for 32 years to start being told how to work by a non-builder and be expected to finance it. FRANCE IS NOT THE UK where giving credit and building practices are concerned.

[Catalpa]

quote:

"...no way would we finance anything until the Md'O decides to pay us..."

"Our" Md'O was employed by the cooperative and got (would have got) a percentage of the value of the job from us but all artisans were to be paid direct: three payments of 1/3 due on day work commenced etc. The idea was that the Md'O managed our requirements and the artisans from a work and materials point of view, not acted as a clearing bank.

[chris_lohierchris lohier]

Thanks a lot to everybody for your replies and advice/point of view, I really appreciate it.
However there might be a slight misunderstanding, as I do not want to be a M d'O. but instead set up a company who can help people who meet problems. I only mentioned that it could be very much like acting as a M d'O sometimes.. My problem is not to find people do do the jobs, because that is my area of work and I already work with people than I know I can rely on, they are well established company who can deliver the stuff. I do not work with Artisans as they are overworked , will accept a job even if they know they're tied up for the next 6 months and as mentioned by many of you do not have a cashflow that allow them to do a job without being paid upfront. This leads however to another problem: I can only work in some limited geographical areas where the companies I work with can accept to work.
But it has got a major advantage: these companies know me and know that, for instance, when I ask for a quote and a lead time I mean business. it is also much easier to deal with a french firm when you are french and well known to them.
Please, do not hesitate to write as I really welcome every little bit of info or any story that can show me where I go wrong or problems you meet or have met.
Many thanks!

[Tony F Dordogne]

I think I think that Chris has a good idea here but I'm also not sure that I understand what it is that he wants to do.

Chris, if you're not working with artisans but are working with an estanblished French company, surely they would have somebody doing the work that you are talking about already?

And from what I understand from friends having new builds done, most of the builders involved in new build are also stretched for time as artisans are.

Are the company/companies you want to work with French or UK based?

 

 

[hardhat]

hi every one,im a builder,ive all ready got 15000 invested in a transit tipper 9 grand in a mini digger  another 15 grand in assorted tools ,if ive got this thread right the starter of this thead thinks i should go and look at a job ,spend three or four days pricing it find find the right people to work with me and not take a payment from a client to pay for on going costs wages ect, theres a job creation scheme going on here and the client can only end up worse off paying a extra man ,if a client wants me to do work i want paying as the job progresses or i dont want the job 

[Monika]

[quote]hi every one,im a builder,ive all ready got 15000 invested in a transit tipper 9 grand in a mini digger another 15 grand in assorted tools ,if ive got this thread right the starter of this thead thin...[/quote]

We are renovating with the help of a Projectmanager but I have come to the conclusion that Val and Charles are the ideal people to employ, they are a building firm with a team installed and don't need to do all the chasing our poor maitre d'oeuvre has to do.  (I am under the impression that he is now starting to assemble his own team as well).

The problem with a Maitre d'oeuvre type enterprise you are suggesting might be, that you might have a project 1 or 2 hours away from where you are based, you might have to employ artisans you don't know.

As regards to payments, we had to pay 1/3rd upfront, then another 1/3rd now the mason is nearly finished etc. I find this only fair and never had a problem with it.

 

[chris_lohierchris lohier]

Answer to Monika, Hardhat and Tony F:

First thanks a lot for all your helpful answers.

Here are a few answers to your questions: As previously stated, I would work with French firms I already work with. But it would be wrong to think that well established company are ready to handle everything. Most of the firms are doing T.C.E (Tout corps d'état) and may employ between 10 to 40 people.their problem is that none of them can speak the lingo, and that becomes a major problem when you are tackling technical and financial issues.

As far as geographical distance is concerned, there is a real issue there. For major work, the problem does not really exist as less than 2 hours for a "full job" is not too much and is obviously included in the price. On the other hand, very small jobs can be handled by my own team (let's say for instance plumbing for an extension)

But between these two examples the answer has yet to be found!!! And it might just well be that we could not deal with them: One should only take a job if he can deliver. You are not obliged to deal or accept everything.

Answers welcome as ever.

Cheers to all!

[hardhat]

hi chris  how u doing, i hope things are well,i have a question for you .why would you not employ me? or other brit firms or micros.we arnt all jack the lads running round scooping money up from un suspecting clients,got nothing against anyone making a living but your trying it seems to give my share of the work about to french firms,personly i hope its a no gower but wish you well with any other ventures

[Tony F Dordogne]

Well hardhat, who needs enemies when they have friends like you around!

Miserable s*d

[hardhat]

tony im not at all a missrable sod.i get enough work for me,more than enough and im really happy go lucky i have no great need to earn lots of cash,but i have frends here with wives and kiids to support,there is a large renovation project going on now near us and its all being over seen by a french man who advertises his services in british publications and over the internet the people having the job done are a nice couple and i hope things work out for them,i my self woudnt want any of the work invollved its to big a job for me to be interested but there are firms and trades people that are local that would do a good job and on time and on budget why shouldnt they get some of the work,they will after all be neighbours to the people having the work done ,i think its odd that any one would just employ some one they have never met from a advert in a brit paper rather than look at the local labour situation,you take a gamble any way you go buta least if the work men are on your doorstep you have some one to complain to if things arnt right,

[Monika]

[quote]tony im not at all a missrable sod.i get enough work for me,more than enough and im really happy go lucky i have no great need to earn lots of cash,but i have frends here with wives and kiids to suppo...[/quote]

Hardhat: where are you based?

I am campaigning for everybody on the Forum to fill in their Member's profile. Surely a good way to do a bit of "legal" advertising!

[hardhat]

hi monika, im in dept 16 and filled my profile in as requested

[Ernie]

Wow, what an interesting thread. I happen to be someone who booked a builder (English) who seemed terrific, judging by his website and his interest in the job - a renovation. All went great for about eigth months, so when he asked for the third 30% of the total cost, I thought, fair enough. (ten per cent was to be retained for snagging etc so at that point he got 90%. And at that point, he effectively walked off the job. He just sent the odd bloke up every now and then to do a bodge up here or a lash up there. Every time we tried to get him to face up to this, he would generally admit it and say he would get on with it and then did nothing. Sometimes he would just get petulant about it. By then it became clear that quite a lot of the work he had done was well below standard so we thought we would check out his insurance. Well, well, well, he didn't have any! What? A reputable English builder, with a website, advertising in the English newspapers with a Siret number and no insurance???? Surely not! But yes! Did I ask for his insurance when I got the estimate? Well, kind of. I had asked if there would be guarantees. Oh yes, he wrote to me, no worries there, we're all covered by insurance. And I believed him! After all, he's got a great website and has a great reputation. People come to him for advice on how to run a job, what the best materials are, and he puts the jobs he's done up on his website. Even ours, which he has seriously screwed up!!!

[hardhat]

hi ernie, unfortunatly i know quite a few people in your position and wouldnt know what to advise,there is a english chap near us with a big fancy office in town who,es letting client after client down,he knows absulutly nothing about building but how do you stop it happening,english people seem loth to use the french courts but its prity simple to do and investing in a solicitors letter may just do the job in your case,wouldnt break the bank to try

[Ernie]

Thanks hardhat. Know any good solicitors in Haute-vienne?!