WARNING- DODGY IMMOBILIER. If you have lost your deposit or are in danger of this...

[Llwyncelyn]

From what I have read this is a whole tin bag or whatever of worms.  However please and in relation to the last posting for attorneys (and which is a US term) do we read Notaires or Advocats or whatever?

For Notaires read Govt employees in essence for Advocats read as in the UK Barristers and thus self employed.

I come from a UK background of the law and I am suprised to read that we 'rule'

Here I could well argue my position and suggest that to do so would take up this forum for arguments that will not take anyone of us anywhere.

However a global approach to notaires solicitors barristers solicitors clerks licenced conveyancers or whatever and to group them as though they are unclean is a situation that has little or no value.

For the original contributor consider if you will a situation where I worked for a client obtained well in excess of £480000 as a pay off from his company in respect of employment. I trusted the guy and after six weeks chased only to find that he was no longer in the UK jurisdiction and yes I lost my fee. In theory the Solicitor was on notice but we had a long relationship and we were both caught. What should have happened is that some fees on account should have been paid.

That is life I trusted him he dumped me.  Therefore I say it would be unfair of me to group all such people together as being untrustworthy.  Indeed I indicated my fee ahead of dealing and without any arguments from the client so all I asked him to do is what he agreed to do in the first place.

In the UK if you were to buy a house your deposit goes to a Solicitor who then is accountable.  Why would you here give money to someone that you do not really know is a member of an association with little credibility and would you give deposit to an estate agent in the UK.  The answer is no certainly no.

In all of this the contributor has faced a huge huge problem and if I can be of any assistance then please just send me a pm.

 

[KathyC]

I wonder if anyone would ever buy anything in England if some of us were to recount some of the things that had happened over the years. Losing the money spent on surveys, homebuyers reports and legal fees for abortive purchases are commonplace as are gazumping, gazundering (isn't that something to do with chamberpots?) and estate agents from hell. Things can go wrong in any country and no system is perfect; the point I was making is that the French system seems to me to have fewer opportunities for things to go wrong than that which operates in England.

[Negotiator]

Having worked in property sales for more years than I care to remember, I get a little sick and tired of the derogatory statements made with regard to property sales disasters apportioned to the fault of the agent.

Apart from the odd dodgy agent, many of the problems arise due to the actions of the purchaser, or the seller having a change of heart.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people will decide because they have managed to secure a property on foreign shores, they are now well qualified to speak as an expert on property sales or even better, decide they will now become an estate agent!

[Quillan]

[quote user="Negotiator"]Having worked in property sales for more years than I care to remember, I get a little sick and tired of the derogatory statements made with regard to property sales disasters apportioned to the fault of the agent.

[/quote]

Does this mean you have been selling properties for a long time in France and are actually qualified to work here.

In the case of the original poster I really think you should go back and read his original post in which he says he has proof in writing of the errors made by the agent and he still has not actually completed on the house. He has also stated that agent did not pass information on to the notaire which he proved when he spoke to the notaire directly.

The only person I know here who has passed comment from a experts point of view is Will whos wife, to the best of my knowledge, is qualified here in France and still works in the industry. As for people who have bought well many here have said they have had no problems. A person who has bought in France does know a little more than a person who never has but none here to my knowledge have claimed to be experts.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Negotiator"]Having worked in property sales for more years than I care to remember, I get a little sick and tired of the derogatory statements made with regard to property sales disasters apportioned to the fault of the agent. Apart from the odd dodgy agent, many of the problems arise due to the actions of the purchaser, or the seller having a change of heart. It never ceases to amaze me how some people will decide because they have managed to secure a property on foreign shores, they are now well qualified to speak as an expert on property sales or even better, decide they will now become an estate agent![/quote]

And who are you by any other name?

I can't place much credibility with someone who registers just to make a comment such as this.

Own up or shut up.

 

[Lori]

I just want to say that my post reflects only my own experiences here.  I would never claim to be an expert on the subject of Notaires, Avocats or Immobiliers.  I only know what has happened to us and all 3 of those failed in giving us the service we paid for.  Was it just bad luck, perhaps.

We did do what we thought was our homework before moving here.  We read dozens of books (many of which we found to be inaccurate once we arrived and I'm not saying any inaccuracies were intentional, just that we found some of the processes noted to be totally different when we went through them and the books were latest additions), spoke with many expatriates who had "made the move."  Reviewed what seems like hudreds of websites on the subjet and spent many an hour asking all types of questions at the French Consulate in Los Angeles, so we did know a little bit before we actually went through the process.  Our circumstances are long and somewhat hard to believe - and far too long to type out here - besides who would want to read it anyway !

My reason for posting was not to say that one country's system is better than another.  I didn't say that.  I do believe that the French system has a good deal of room for improvement (perhaps all systems do).  The main reason I posted was because the original poster appeared to be going through a tough time.  I did not want him to think he was alone.  I also wanted him to be careful when dealing with Notaires and Avocats.  No, they are not all bad, heavens no, but some are, as was the case with the two we have paid.  I'm sure this is the case in all the world, but it doesn't hurt to remind people to be careful and document everything.  That was my only intention.

I have a great respect for the posters here, especially Sundaydriver, who is so very helpful in so many ways.  I did not mean to offend anyone by my post.

[Sunday Driver]

No offence taken at all, Lori - even though we may disagree.....[:)]

 

 

[Lori]

Sundaydriver - glad to hear it as I have the utmost respect for you.  

 

[Benjamin]

I think I'm going to be sick.

Is this anything to do with Keep Sunday Special?  [:P]

Benjamin

[Gastines]

An add-on to the check list.  Get the land [cadastre] plot numbers off of the Immo and go to the local mairie.They are usually very helpfull in telling you exactly what goes where and what IS GOING WHERE. on 2 occasions we have been told," The plot goes right across that field, down to the trees etc" only to find out completely different. Just make sure you know what you are buying.

Regards.

[Lori]

Gastines - that is excellent advice.  If we had done that, we might have been able to avoid some of the problems we faced.  After our experience, I no longer trust what people say.  Even officials, who, in our case, knew the facts we were given were incomplete or untrue.  We did not learn this until after we bought the house (long story).  Viewing official cadastral documents would have led us to questioning the accuracy of the information we were given.  We simply never thought to do that.  Naive or just plain stupid, take your pick.  We never dreamed a Notaire, seller and Immobilier would be a part of lying on an Acte de Vente.  But, it did happen and it was so easy to prove, once we put together all the data.  The next problem involved the attorneys we hired, but I won't go there.

Benjamin - sorry to make you sick, but I don't like feeling that I might have offended someone I respect.

[Benjamin]

Sorry Lori; it was a leg pull.

Maybe I should have posted "Keep Sunday (Driver) Special"? and, no, you didn't really make me feel sick.

I agree we should all thank people who are as helpful as S D.

Benjamin

[Lori]

Computers are funny aren't they..  I thought you were being serious.

Wonder how Painterman is getting on.  He hasn't come back..

[painterman]

Thank you to all who have taken the time to reply here. I'll check the pm's too in a few minutes. It is very important to have a balanced view from both sides of the 'argument'. It is no good damning the whole system of this or that. We posted this thread simply to warn others who could be in the same sort of mess that we're in.

I at least get a break from the paperwork side when I go off to work, because The Mrs generally deals with all that. She sat and cried this morning. I think that she is totally fed up with the whole bag of lies. We had one more shock on Friday when she translated one of the documents we have just been sent.( I'm not writing any of this for sympathy because that would'nt get us anywhere anyway. The Mrs deserves a good hug of comfort when I get back from work tonight - and the tea is one me without a doubt.) As always she gets back up and cracks on with things- as you do.

We've had a weekend of translating so I was quite surprised that so many people have replied. Our French is improving, but I would have preferred that to be achieved through the happier ways in life. Anyhow this is why we've not checked on the forum what was happening for a few days.

Harley, Llwyncelyn, and Sunday Driver, your comments especially valid, ( as others are not to reduce anyone's contributions). So Thank you.

The comment about FNAIM  not perhaps helping will knock the Mrs for six. Maybe one more shove too hard and it will be the newspapers here she comes... I hope not, but she is her own person and we always support each other.

Legally, we perhaps could do with some legal help, but we'll have to give it a few more weeks and then we'll see about that route. I don't think we could go down that route though if The Mrs talks to the press..? I'll have a talk with her. She's always so sensible.

We know one thing thou, the notaires that we have are good and have done their best to make good/better a bad situation. We hope that we are on the last bit of this slog with the immobilier though. I feel sure though that if/when we finally arrive in France, my wife will not be quiet about this because it has had such an impact on us. The Mrs is usually very restrained in such matters preferring to see things from both sides of the fence , so to speak. No guarantees on this one though- immobilier watch out. Contrary to her nature she will I'm sure speak up on this one.

If we get sorted in the next few weeks, we'll let you know. Tonight we must finish the packing because we have to leave for France in the next couple of days, and it won't be the ferry that makes us feel sick, just the thought of what other nasty surprise might be waiting for us. Maybe I should have stuck out for emigrating to the States.... suppose there's problems there too.

Sorry folks I'm fed up too and waffling. We'll let you know how we get on, but the offer still stands, that if anyone else is in the position that their deposit is at stake and the immobilier wants their fees even though they don't deserve them by now, pm us. There might be something that we have done to protect ourselves that some others could still employ in their methods to sort things out. Even so, we lost any rose tinted glasses that we may have had last autumn. Since then total reality has been the order of the day and no amount of following up what the immobilier is doing has helped. How can you trust someone when they don't send you the copy documents that you repeatedly ask for, and withhold information from the notaires? I need to get back to work, break over. I will let you know how we get on in a couple of weeks.

Painterman.[:(]

[Sunday Driver]

Painterman

You're almost there, so why not just look forward to the great time you're going to have living in France.  Think of all the things that made you want to up sticks and move

You've had a hard time of this and it's delayed the move, but why waste good living/eating/drinking time by trying to bayonet the immo. I know it's difficult to resist, but why not put it down to experience and move on.

Your first night in your new French house is the one to remember.....[:D]

 

 

 

[painterman]

Daer Sunday Driver,

I've read what hubby has put!! Tea was lovely- its the little treats that make things better.

I must finish the packing. There will be time to worry at the end of the week before we sign (If we actually can sign. We will have to see if our Notaire can sort out the last trouble spots.)

OOOhhh, Bayonet the immobilier. Very drastic measure, but uhmmm...... hadn't thought of that......

It is quite a pity that they don't have the stocks in use.

I must keep things chugging along. Thank you Sunday Driver. We will let you know the outcome when we return, if all this trouble has been worth it.  Uhmmm... bayonet the immobilier......very drastic, but with a dry sense of humour..... a very appealing thought![;-)]

[Jupiter]

I urge sellers to think about using the internet to sell their properties privately. If you feel you must use an agent then do so without giving sole selling rights so that you can still  do some advertising and promotion of your own. There are sites such as http://www.french-property.com & http://www.1st-for-french-property.co.uk and newpapers such as French News (http://www.french-news.com) where anyone can inexpensively advertise  property details with photos. Both buyer and seller profit if there isn't an agent in the middle trying to milk off  ridiculous agency commissions of up to 10% . Not only this but  a buyer  can gain a much clearer and quicker impression of a property  without an agent who will try to obscure the property address until the buyer has visited the agency office and signed up. What a waste of time this can be. Most houses advertised by agents  are described in terms  that  enable you to pinpoint their locations only to within about 10 or 20 kms!

It's a myth that you need an agent as a go-between with the notaire. What you might need is a translator.

If agents feel the wind of competition from private sales there is the possibility that competition will drive down fees and improve service.

[Will]

There is nothing to say that anybody has to use an agent or notaire to sell a house, but there can be good reasons to do so. As long as you use a good one, and as we all know there are several agents - and notaires - that leave something to be desired.

First, the house buying and selling systems in France and England are substantially different and, in a private sale, buyer and/or seller can easily become unstuck. Although a notaire has, by law, to oversee the transaction, this is mainly to ensure that certain conditions are met and all due taxes are paid. They will give legal advice, and many do without prompting, but are only obliged to answer questions that are asked specifically rather then offer guidance. An example is when buying an old property for conversion - you may end up with a field with a pile of stones in it, worth a fraction of what you paid, as the seller may have been refused a CU for the conversion and is looking for another sucker to buy it as you won't get a CU either. This happens. A professional will be wise to this, and won't touch it, as there is more comeback against a professional than a private seller.

Another result of the different systems is the way that details of property for sale, and sales commissions, are totally different in the two countries, as the post above points out. There are reasons for this, which have been discussed many times. Just because something is done that way in France (or England) doesn't make it the right way, or even the best way of course, but not to understand why things are different shows naiveté or a lack of respect for the country in which you want to live. Despite what it says above, estate agency is a highly competitive business and if agents could substantially reduce fees they would. As a side issue, many people are under the impression that as they have to use a notaire, they can get the notaire to sell the house and not pay agency fees. Wrong. Notaires charge a negotiating fee on a government-imposed scale of between 2.5% and 5%, to which TVA at 19.6% must be added.

There is also the matter of cost to the seller. Instructing an agency costs the seller nothing (in most of France). You also get the benefit of a valuation from somebody who knows the local market and the current conditions, rather than a finger-in-the-air figure which may either do you out of a potentially good price or be too high to attract buyers. Selling privately, there is the cost of marketing and advertising, the fact that you need to be on hand, in France, and available at short notice to show potential buyers around (and these may well include large numbers of time wasters) etc etc. That can take up a lot of time, and for many people time is worth money, plus trips over to France if you are selling a holiday home. And if a buyer wants a house, where is the first place most will look? Usually an estate agency.

A buyer will expect a reduction on the asking price of at least equivalent to the agency fee. I don't know what the advertising cost will be but it is likely to be substantial. At least one of the sites mentioned above deals mainly with agencies, and although it is very effective, the agencies pay a hell of a lot for the privilege. I cannot imagine private sellers would get the service for a lot less, otherwise the agencies would pose as private sellers ( maybe some do, so buyers won't really benefit at all).

Although buyers will not be paying sales commissions they will probably need to pay for some other kind of professional involvement, e.g. translators and legal advice, which are not often available on the cheap, or at least not if they are any good.

Plenty of people buy and sell privately, but there are good reasons for using professionals too, especially in France. I am not an agent, though I do have the good fortune to be married to one who is. I may be slightly biased - but feel that's preferable to the ill-informed rubbish that is often directed against agents, the majority of whom are helpful, decent and honest people, on forums like this.

[Quillan]

Spot on Will.

Most of the agents I have come across in France have been very good and have spent loads of time with us when house hunting back in 2000. The ones we used to buy our place were excellent and we still, 6 years on, get excellent after sales service if we don't know how to deal with things. This is something you can't get selling privately and you certainly don't get in the UK where it's give us your money and bogger off. If I ever wanted to sell my house I would use the agent I bought from. I have heard similar stories from people who have bought using other local French agencies.

The only bad 'agent' we ever came across was one we contacted in the UK and was a English woman who after visiting two houses with her in France, told to wait in the car while she went to her office, it became apparent that she didn't actually wok for anyone but rather received a commission from any agent she sold a house from. Absolutely a waste of time.

What I really can't understand is what the problem is with French commissions. Is it that people are thick and have not understood anything in this thread, how many times do they have to be told. The seller sets the asking price and the agent adds their commission to that price then advertises the property inclusive of their commission so the seller looses nothing, zilch, not a penny, zero. Its people trying to compare the UK to France and like in so many areas of French life you just can't do it, France and the UK are about as similar as chalk and cheese.

BUT likewise if people think (wrongly in my opinion)  that they are saving money using internet property sites to sell their property and are happy about doing so then that’s up to them. They should however consider that they are missing out on the possibility of selling to the French and lets face it there is a lot more of them (French) in France than English. Somewhat limiting your market (and your sales opportunities) I would say.

 

[darnsarf]

Many of the problems described seem to be based on a mixture of  language skills not being fully fluent, lack of familiarity of the legal/admin process of the professionals involved and maybe a bit of cultural difference. OK, fuelled by (at least) dodgy adminsitration by the 'experts' involved.

Just to throw another piece of advice in (no, I'm not a lawyer flogging legal services or connected with one!). I would advise that people consider a UK based solicitor with both Avocat and Solicitor qualifications, to help with the process. Yes, it does add considerably to the cost. My french is OK(ish) but it's not just the translation of legal documents which is important, it's what they mean in (french) legal terms. They can negotiate all sorts of 'suspensives' and other clauses. As the representative of the buyer, what they do and how they do it means that the buyer can avoid being seen as 'difficult' and can, to some degree, 'hide behind' the process, which can help buyer/seller relationships. Also, in our case, my 'Mrs' of 25 years is not actually my 'Mrs' and thus we needed lots of advice with regard to inheritance etc. I have to say that, not only did they earn every penny of their fees, they also made me feel a lot more comfortable about what to expect and how to ensure my/our interests were protected, as well as they might be. I also felt a lot more in control, knowing that I could call them and discuss things in my mother tongue - and more easily take a complaint further if I felt they weren't doing their job properly.  The agent is there to sell the property and the Notaire is there to ensure that the sale is legally administered - that's all.

Using (and signing) a template compromis from an agent and then being committed to (at least) a sizeable deposit payment is, for me, too worrisome to contemplate. We wouldn't do it in the UK without help, so why do we think we can do it in another country? Horror stories abound of property purchases in France, Spain, Portugal, Hungary and other countries yet this doesn't seem to deter so many people 'blindly' handing over huge sums without adequate advice and protection.

I'm not having a go at the originator of the thread - I'm pleased to read that it's all nearly over. But it is a shame that all this worry takes the shine off what should be a lovely experience - buying a place in France.

 

 

 

[Bob T]

I have just read this post for the first time, and I sympathise with the buyer, but to put things into perspective, this is one case in thousands. It is always the problem purchases that get the limelight.

In my own experience, I came to France not speaking a word of the language, and my fluent German does not help, but found a French immo, who not only supplied an English translator for the process but did many other things too. Two years ago he changed the electricity over, arranged for a phone and the internet to be connected, and still does loads for us without asking for anything in return. He even sent his wife to hte Prefecture with us to register a car in our name.

I know of ywo other English families that have bought houses through him and he has treated them the same. In one case the Brit did not try to negotiate the price, and when we turned up at his office for the C de V, he has negotiated 6000 euro off the price on their behalf!

I wanted some wood to build a wood shed, he told me the best place to get it from, made the phone call to order it, and then loaned me his quad and trailer to collect it.

I know that he is totally honest and a very popular person in my village. If my wife does some baking, we now take some of the cakes into  the office for him and his staff.

I would like to think that this gives some hope to others thinking of buying here and know that this will not help the original poster, but there are good and bad people all over the world. In my opinoin there are more legal ripoffs inthe UK (think about some of the parking laws) than there are here.

I wish the original poster all the best and hope that they come to a satisfactory conclusion. I would also like to see rogue immos shamed, that would make others more confident in dealing with the many honest and helpful estate agent here.

I have a freind here who was ripped off by an immo, but the immo was English and working here. I also know hundreds of English people that have had no problem.

Please to not ake any of this post to be a critisim of anyone in any way, it is not intended to be that way.

[George]

Quillan wrote "What I really can't understand is what the problem is with French commissions."

For  a start they are typically too high and they don't relate to the value of the service provided. According to the FNAIM website, agency fees are not regulated (unlike notaire fees). Fees can be negotiated but are still usually many times higher than in other countries (I speak having bought and sold houses in 5 countries).  It's doublethink to imagine that high fees (often up to 10%) can be extracted from a transaction without distorting the deal for both buyers and sellers. Both end up feeling some impact.

High fees with great service might be justifiable but usually the service is nothing special.  The staff (not the proprietors) in many estate agencies in France are without training. If you ask them for full property details they look at you blankly. Anyone who has dealt with a realtor in Canada or the US will confirm the contrast (and their fees are often about half).

I think the introduction of a formal MLS (multiple listing system) might be a positive step for agents and buyers. It's a proven system for encouraging widespread co-operation between agents with fee splitting. Of course fees splitting already goes on but only on ad hoc basis. At present agents mainly seem to play a sort of numbers game. Get 500 enquiries, hope to convert 1% to actual sales This is no good for anyone.

Or maybe agents need to offer lower fees in exchange for sole agency so that they can be more focused on their stock without being pre-occupied with being ripped off.

There's always room for improvement.

Quillan thinks that people who do not share his understanding are "thick." It's a pity when someone feels the need to take this tone. Could it be that he feels the weakness of his case. Makes me think of the Moody Blues lyrics "it riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave and keep on thinking free."

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="George"]
Quillan thinks that people who do not share his understanding are "thick." It's a pity when someone feels the need to take this tone. Could it be that he feels the weakness of his case. Makes me think of the Moody Blues lyrics "it riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave and keep on thinking free."


[/quote]

Does it? Why? I can't see the connection.

[Dick Smith]

I think Quillan was referring to people who do not seem able to understand what is clearly set out in front of them.

Rather an abrasive first post, dont'cha think?

[Tony F Dordogne]

Lot of them about lately Dick ................