Bathroom Heater

[westland]

We are now able to start using the bathroom in our small extension and I am hoping that someone can pass on a bit of electrical advice. 

We have been costed up on the devis for an electric convector in the bathroom only, however the electrician didn't seem to be aware of this and although he had positioned wiring approx 25cms from the floor on one wall we found that he has just put a socket front onto the wires.  I asked if it was suitable for a heater and he said yes and it has its own fuse switch at the box. 

 Ok to get to the point, don't know whether to refer him to the devis and ask him to fit one for us, although this is likely to be a very basic heater, or to shop around to find the most suitable one ourselves.  What's a bit worrying is that looking at products on the internet it seems that we can't just stick a plug on as they have to be wired through a "box".  Also not sure why they all seem to say that the earth wire should not be used.  So any advice would be welcome. Thanks Kate.

[Punch]

[quote user="westland"]

We are now able to start using the bathroom in our small extension and I am hoping that someone can pass on a bit of electrical advice. 

We have been costed up on the devis for an electric convector in the bathroom only, however the electrician didn't seem to be aware of this and although he had positioned wiring approx 25cms from the floor on one wall we found that he has just put a socket front onto the wires.  I asked if it was suitable for a heater and he said yes and it has its own fuse switch at the box. 

 Ok to get to the point, don't know whether to refer him to the devis and ask him to fit one for us, although this is likely to be a very basic heater, or to shop around to find the most suitable one ourselves.  What's a bit worrying is that looking at products on the internet it seems that we can't just stick a plug on as they have to be wired through a "box".  Also not sure why they all seem to say that the earth wire should not be used.  So any advice would be welcome. Thanks Kate.

[/quote]

The type, make and puissance (wattage) of the heater should have been marked on the devis. Either it says he is supplying the heater or not, so you should be clear about this by looking at your devis.

Electric heaters come in a huge variety of types and styles ranges from the basic convector (60 euros) to high tech containing ceramic and refractrory materials inside ( 250 euros or more).

Most heaters these days are class 2 rated and therefore do not need (and shouldn't be) connected to earth. But anything that is not class 2 MUST be earthed. He may have wired a fil pilote ( an extra control wire) to the wall outlet for the heater which enables you to control the heater more precisely and remotely using a programmer.

The French regs say that any fixed appliance such as a heater should be connected via a boitier de connection ( flex outlet box) and not by plug and socket. This is easy to do as you just remove the wall socket from the wiring and fix an outlet plate instead.

If the heater is not class 2 then it must be installed in zone 3 which is at least 60cm from a bath or shower, otherwise it may be installed (belive it or not) right next to the bath. One final point ; all circuits to a salle de bain must be protected by a Inter differentielle but all new installations these days usually are.

Paul.

 

 

[tj]

Hi

Dont know what your electrician has in mind but, if the socket as it is now, is basically a single circuit ( cable runs to fuseboard without interuption) with its own breaker in the fuse board, then remove the socket front, and connect the heater cable to live and neutral, using choc block connectors, there is a special plate to cover the box.

Radiators are available from Brico Depot, Castorama, Leroy Merlin etc anywhere from 80 euros upwards.

   

[westland]

Many thanks for your advice.  The devis hasn't really been specific and as we are only costed up for 200 euros plus tax for the line and heater I am assuming it is for a basic convector as mentioned by Punch.  The ones that I have been looking at do say they are class 2 so you have explained why the earth shouldn't be used, presumably if there is an earth wire at the socket this is just left to one side.

Just as an extra question there seem to be a few sockets with two sets of each colour of wire, is this normal? Kate.

[Punch]

[quote user="westland"]

Many thanks for your advice.  The devis hasn't really been specific and as we are only costed up for 200 euros plus tax for the line and heater I am assuming it is for a basic convector as mentioned by Punch.  The ones that I have been looking at do say they are class 2 so you have explained why the earth shouldn't be used, presumably if there is an earth wire at the socket this is just left to one side.

Just as an extra question there seem to be a few sockets with two sets of each colour of wire, is this normal? Kate.

[/quote]

 

Kate,  as you say the earth wire should be just sealed off and left inside the box if using a class 2 appliance. The two wires as each socket are normal because it is a pair of wires feeding into the socket and a pair out to the next socket.

[Nick Trollope]

Small other point - any heater in a bathroom must be fed from it's own disjoncteur differential, of an appropriate rating - had a bit of a CONSUEL problem with this one.

Also (IMHO) "conventional" heaters don't really warm up a bathroom fast enough - I'd use one of those 2Kw fan-type heaters (some of which have timers and towel rails).

 

[westland]

Would that have to be totally on it's own as there is also a socket that has been left for use with a heater in the bedroom next door which I think is linked to the one in the bathroom.   I have been looking at the blower type heaters and they are maybe the best for the bathroom.  I have looked at some of the covers that I think have been mentioned, they just screw to the wall with a recess for the wire to come out of (without any acutal wiring inside the plate itself) so I assume that these are the ones.   I'm probably not knowledgeable enough  about the disjoncteurs differential/inter to be able to check what's been done, but thanks for all your replies. Kate.

[Chancer]

Mine passed consuel whilst being on the same circuit as the kitchen heater (I was still somewhat in the dark when I ran the gaines) but i am sure Nick is correct and will do it right next time.

It may have helped that the heaters were not in place at the time of inspection as I wanted to use non N.F. UK sourced storage heaters - bought form BDC very cheaply and I am very pleased with them.

He may not have seen the second junction box but it was clearly marked on the schema that I drew, again another requirement that he didnt look at!

[Punch]

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

Small other point - any heater in a bathroom must be fed from it's own disjoncteur differential, of an appropriate rating - had a bit of a CONSUEL problem with this one.

[/quote]

 

Nick are you sure about this? I am certain that the French regs actually state that "all circuits entering a bathroom should have at least one or several disjoncteur differentielles" . There is absolutely no need to have a seperate DD just for the heater. I have had several Consuels passed like this,a nd have quite a good knowledge of the Regs having owned a copy for several years.

In answer to kates other question yes the plates you talk about are fine. They should be preferably situated behind the heater when the heater is installed, as recommended in the Promotelec guide.

JR - It is quite common for heater circuits to have one or more heaters attached to it. The regs state for a 2.5mm radial circuit you can have up to 4500watts connected by any combination of heaters, protected by a 20 amp disjoncteur. You can equally have up to 2250watts on a 1.5mm cable run. So in the first instance you could have four 1KW convectors on a single circuit.

 

Paul.

[Chancer]

Yes Punch, that was the basis that I was working on at the time, however the normes and perhaps also Consuels' interpretation so I am always pleased to hear of the "new" problems that others come up against to save myself future aggro.

[Keni]

I am finding this one interesting as our bathroom heater - a convector - is just placed (hooked) on the wall and operates simply by plugging into a socket on the wall. There is a low to high setting, but no on or off. Some times when you unplug it, there is a small spark, but I find this seems normal in French homes. Is that correct?

Keni & Chris

[Mikew]

Are you unable to switch it off before unplugging? Just pulling a plug on a live circuit will quite often give a spark, you break the circuit too slowly...

(Hope your heater is in the correct zone in the bathroom)

[Keni]

So I should just pull the wire a bit quicker then to stop the spark?

No, turning the dial on the top either makes it blow colder or warmer. There is actually no other control on this fan heater!

And it is placed a metre or so away from the shower and sink, on a wall with no water connections.

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Punch"]

Nick are you sure about this? I am certain that the French regs actually state that "all circuits entering a bathroom should have at least one or several disjoncteur differentielles" . There is absolutely no need to have a seperate DD just for the heater. I have had several Consuels passed like this,a nd have quite a good knowledge of the Regs having owned a copy for several years.

Paul.

[/quote]

Err... No, I'm not - I was rather hoping you would tell me otherwise! I'll explain; I picked up a 1/2 half finished job (from an Electrician/plumber who was useless) and took it to CONSUEL certification. There was 1 set of wiring for 3 heaters (all installed in seperate bathrooms, but fed to a Bte de D next to the board). The CONSUEL chap said that each of the heaters must be on a seperate breaker - not a problem as there was space in the tableau & I just extended the cables. HOWEVER, he found plenty of other things wrong (not me I hasten to add!) and he may have been being particularly pedantic. There were no heaters installed at the time.