We have some building plans to draw, must it be an architect ?

[friend of stouby]

We have a small fermette 5m x 19.6m in area (to the outside of 0.5m stone walls) and are making plans for refurbishment of various parts of the building.

We need to make repairs to some of the toof tiling and have decided to re-tile the roof completely plus want to make 2 bedrooms in the roof space. We will use local tradesmen for the roofing and carpentry but will fit the bedrooms out ourselves.  We are at the beginning of asking for Devis for the re-roofing and the alteration of some of the roof timbers to allow a clear walking space throughout (currently there are 2  'A' frame structures which separate the roof space into 3 sections due to the horizontal part of the frame).

At this point we came up with the idea of increasing the depth of the building by about 2m down the entire length and reshaping the roof on the rear of the building to run from the current apex to the (maybe) new rear wall, thus allowing more space on both floors.

We asked a local builder what he thought and he came back with the statement that he will need to see plans before he can comment, which is quite understandable.

And here is the crux of the question : we don't know if the larger project is beyond our means and wish to have ball park figures to guide us to making a decision. We also understand that to employ an architect may be quite a costly way to learn that we can't afford to extend the property. Is there a middle way to have plans drawn with enough detail for a builder to be able to give an estimate, or is it only the architect route for plans, the cost of which may just put us off even asking for a quote for extending the building?

Many thanks for sticking with this question, and any help or direction will be very appreciated.

Jamie

 

 

 

[Nick Trollope]

Broadly speaking, if the finished property is greater than 170 SqM, then yes. There are all sorts of allowances (for walls, non-living space, etc), but if it is less than this, you can do the drawings yourself, or get a builder/engineer to do it.

For the work you describe, you would need a permis de construire.

 

[cooperlola]

My own personal experience suggests that an architect can be a real help.  The 600 euros I shelled out for plans were a great investment for me as the permissions were granted within a very few weeks since all the documentation was correctly done - by him - with no mistakes due to my own translation errors!  But others may have had different experiences so I guess it depends a lot on the architect/builder or whomever you use - and your own expertise in that area of course - I had none!

[Gyn_Paul]

First of all, how good is your French ?

My experience of builders is that - while they are usually reluctant to

commit themselves - with a bit of pushing you can usually get some sort

of ballpark figure out of them. Is it possible that, without a plan, he

was having difficulty understanding exactly what it was you were

proposing?

If you can draw up a (rough) plan of your own, you might have more success extracting a figure from a builder.

As previously noted, if the finished dimension is greater than 170sqm then the plans must

be drawn up by an architect. Smaller than that, and you are free to

submit them yourself - if you feel brave enough ! the sort of project

you are proposing obviously needs a  PdeC.

You don't mention the size of the land on which this fermette is

siting: there is a limit to the size of any extention you can add as a

ratio to sqm (otheres can probably remember the formula; failing that,

the Mairie will help you with this).

p

[friend of stouby]

Thanks Nick, Cooperlola and Paul, there are some points there that will help us go forward.

The 170 m2 rule was has been taken on board and I believe that we can stay easily within that if there is no extension. The cost of 600 € for an architect would be an acceptable cost to draw the new ' A ' frame structure plus the new staircase etc and to take the responisibilty of submitting the plans to the Mairie. We were under the impression that even to talk to an architect in France will cost thousands € upwards, so that was our fear that we spend thousands of €'s only to realise that we can't afford the project anyway.

We struggle with our French but are determined to do so ! The vast majority of French people we encounter try quite hard to work around our lack of reasonable French, and most are quite kindly too. But the point was well made that maybe the builder found that a larger technical building idea needed a more formal approach? so I will now try to draw something that will at least allow builders to understand without language the outline of our ideas and see if ball park figures are then forthcoming.

The land area is 2 Ha so I assume that extensions will not be a problem, and as this is a relatively poor region anything that creates jobs appears to be welcome.

One further question, after the PdeC is granted, what is the maximum time lapse allowed before work must begin ? 

Thanks

Jamie

  

[cooperlola]

The architect's fees seem to be a "broad as it's long" thing.  It rather depends on how much he does.  Ours did not get involved beyond the plan drawing stage but basically he provided: drawings of the house, before and after; photographs of the house pre-alterations, copies of the plans, showing boundaries, of our plot; plus all the forms we needed for the application - 4 copies of everything.  All we had to do was sign the forms and take them to the Mairie - in 6 weeks we had our permissions.  I have the bill somewhere but I'm sure that between 6 and 700 euros was right.  I will find it.

Oh, I should add that this was for a loft conversion so the work was for a staircase, 2 rooms plus bathroom and landing and 3 new lucarnes.

[P]

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

Broadly speaking, if the finished property is greater than 170 SqM, then yes. There are all sorts of allowances (for walls, non-living space, etc), but if it is less than this, you can do the drawings yourself, or get a builder/engineer to do it.

For the work you describe, you would need a permis de construire.

 

[/quote]

Sorry to hijack this thread....

Nick, when you say allowances for walls, non living space etc, from that do I take it that, in connection with the 170 m2 rule then bathrooms, kitchens etc are not taken into account, i.e. it is just lounges, bedrooms and dining rooms that are used and it is the net internal area that is used in the calculations.

Thanks

Paul 

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="P"][quote user="nicktrollope"]

Broadly speaking, if the finished property is greater than 170 SqM,

then yes. There are all sorts of allowances (for walls, non-living

space, etc), but if it is less than this, you can do the drawings

yourself, or get a builder/engineer to do it.

For the work you describe, you would need a permis de construire.

 

[/quote]

Sorry to hijack this thread....

Nick, when you say allowances for walls, non living space etc, from

that do I take it that, in connection with the 170 m2 rule then

bathrooms, kitchens etc are not taken into account, i.e. it is just

lounges, bedrooms and dining rooms that are used and it is the net

internal area that is used in the calculations.

Thanks

Paul 

[/quote]

Aren't you confusing the habitable area calculated for Taxe D'Hab

purposes with that for building  purposes? It was my understanding

that it is the brut area after building work being over 170sqm which

was the clincher.

p

[BIG MAC]

If I can make a suggestion?

If you take dimensions and photos its possible to make drawings here (With someone who understands what you mean) and use these drawings to get tenders / devis.

If You decide figures are to your liking then take the drawings on disc to the French Architect who should be able to Frenchify them.

Just a suggestion.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Gyn_Paul"][quote user="P"][quote user="nicktrollope"]

[/quote]

[/quote]

Aren't you confusing the habitable area calculated for Taxe D'Hab purposes with that for building  purposes? It was my understanding that it is the brut area after building work being over 170sqm which was the clincher.
p
[/quote]

That is correct, I was discussing this with an architect only last week, my development that I am currently working on will be over the 170m2 brut hen I convert the grenier. The habitable area of the grenier would not take it over the 170m2 but the brut area does.

However if I do the work in stages i.e the flats on the ground and first floor initially (less than 170m2 brut), I dont need an architect. If I "then decide" to convert the grenier it is new work again less than 170m2 so again no architect needed.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="J.R."][quote user="Gyn_Paul"][quote user="P"][quote user="nicktrollope"]

[/quote]

[/quote]

Aren't you confusing the habitable area calculated for Taxe D'Hab purposes with that for building  purposes? It was my understanding that it is the brut area after building work being over 170sqm which was the clincher.
p
[/quote]

That is correct, I was discussing this with an architect only last week, my development that I am currently working on will be over the 170m2 brut hen I convert the grenier. The habitable area of the grenier would not take it over the 170m2 but the brut area does.

However if I do the work in stages i.e the flats on the ground and first floor initially (less than 170m2 brut), I dont need an architect. If I "then decide" to convert the grenier it is new work again less than 170m2 so again no architect needed.

[/quote]

That is at odds with my understanding of the 170 SqM rule, I'm afraid.

 

[Chancer]

Nick

I hope that you are right, I was discussing it with an architect friend but my French is still at the stage where I can misunderstand things or ask the wrong question, that is why, for me discussion on this forum is so usefull.

I actually hope that you are right! So can anyone confirm whether the limit of 170m2 requiring an architect is surface brut or surface habitable?

[Nick Trollope]

My contradictory understanding is about the "stages" issue. The surface area is definately brut less allowances (walls, heights less than 1.8M(?) etc etc).

[BJSLIV]

Nick is correct the floor area refers to the total area at the end of the project. So existing area 100 plus 60 new , no architect required. Existing area 150 plus 21 new, requires architect sign-off.

 

 

[friend of stouby]

....  but are wall thicknesses deductable? and apart from the stair well and roof eaves (1.7m/1.8m?) what else is ?

Thanks

[Le 47]

SHON is the net surface that must be less than 170 sq m. Allowance from the SHOB gross figure include heights less than 1.8 m,  5% for insulation, in other words living space over 1.8 m high. there are some other bits & pieces but I cant remeber all the details.

You cannot escape this rule by doing work in increments as the existing building and new bit are always added together.

You can buy a book on PdC in a decent bookshop as well and get a PdC application form and check that out too.

Bill

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

Nick is correct the floor area refers to the

total area at the end of the project. So existing area 100 plus 60 new

, no architect required. Existing area 150 plus 21 new, requires

architect sign-off.

 

 

[/quote]

Furthermore 100+60 this time, then it's 160+ whatever next time.

Otherwise on that basis you could build Verseilles without a PdeC

provided you did it in small enough stages!

p

[Aitch]

It seems as if your intended alterations are more or less just the same as what we have had done. We did not increase the overall dimensions of the building but did have the garage converted to a bathroom and kitchen, with a bedroom above that.  We had the roof line extended over the garage and used new tiles for the front of the roof and re-used the best of the old tiles at the rear. We kept the A-frame so no alterations required.The staircase was also designed in but has only just been installed. I actually used A4 paper to draw several Plan and Elevations (scaled and accurate as best I could, but I do have drawing experience) which I gave to the builder and these he submitted to the Mairie etc. These plans were acceptable (its been 5 years since). Our ball park figure was £25K, but the figure did go up a little as extra work was required. Hope this helps,

Aitch