Private property sales in France

[Steve Roberts]

Hi,

I have been browsing french property websites and I have seen a few interesting private sale properties on IFP and FPL. The lack of agency commission has interested me but I am concerned about the difficulty in buying direct from a vendor without agency representation.

My french is ok, so language shouldn't be too much of a problem. Instead I am unsure of the buyer and seller roles in a private purchase. Does anyone have any advice from personal experience or links to good information specific to private sales in France. The only info I have so far found online is the general purchase info found in the IFP Guides: http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/purchase-real-estate/legal/

All help gratefully received.

Thanks

Steve

[Panda]

Hi There

We've bought and sold privately and also bought orignally  from an agent.  The differences are that if you buy privately of course all contact is with the seller whose only interest is in selling the property, a good agent will give you reassurance and will arrange and explain all the necessary paperwork and will also arrange connection of facilities and be a contact point in the future, most are willing to carry on helping out where they can.  So you might ask why did we buy and sell privately second time around, for us our first agent was not a good one and did not help out a great deal, time had also moved on our french was up to the job and we also knew how the whole thing worked.  We arranged the connection of the facilities for ourself and also for the people we sold to.

So in short, my advice as a first time buyer in France would be to seek out a good agent in the area of choice, test them out by asking them detaild info on schooling, ask them to confirm what support they will provide etc.  I think a good agent is worth their weight in gold and I am not against buying from an agent in the future. 

Panda

[Sunday Driver]

Buying a property is a straightforward sale transaction between the vendor and the buyer.  The legal aspect of the transaction is undertaken by the notaire(s) acting for the parties.

The estate agent's principal function is to introduce the buyer to the vendor, and if the sale proceeds, then the agent charges the buyer a fee for this successful introduction.  Everything else the agent gets involved in is merely in the way of a hand holding service and it's your choice as to whether you consider this justifies their fee or not.

 

 

[Gastines]

Also don't forget the fees from the Agent add,on average, 8% to the price paid by the buyer. Introducing your private buyer direct to a  Notaire can save the buyer a considerable amount and make the sale price of the property much more attractive.

 I'm still hoping that now that property prices in 'most' areas of France are reaching pretty high sums. the fees will start dropping to a reasonable level to the input given.

Regards.

[Athene]

I have been browsing french property websites and I have seen a few interesting private sale properties on IFP and FPL. The lack of agency commission has interested me but I am concerned about the difficulty in buying direct from a vendor without agency representation.

Why don't you go to the local notaire's office and ask to see any properties he is to act for. This will cost you a whole lot less than  going to an agent!

[ianf]

Dead simple as it is the notaire who handles the legal arrangements. I did it two years ago with no problems what so ever

[Will]

Notaires' searches etc are rather more basic than those carried out by conyancing lawyers in England, so you would be advised to do a lot of research yourself and/or take on additional advisors. You may well need to pay for translators. It has been known for private sales to be the sort of properties, with serious prolems, that agents and notaires will not touch themselves - the classic example being the barn or old house, 'ripe for conversion or renovation', but which cannot get a certificat d'urbanisme, the necessary permssion. The seller (who may have been caught the same way himself) is just waiting for an unsuspecting foreigner.

If you know how the system works and what are the possible advantages and dangers of buying privately then you can indeed save a good bit of money agency fees. But the costs of UK solicitors, translators etc (and possible extra trips to check up on progress and put the proverbial rocket under slow French lawyers) can eat into the savings if you are not careful.

Notaires too charge sales commission if you find the house through a notaire. It is generally at a lower rate than an agent (though not always, particularly at the two extremes of the price spectrum).

[Llwyncelyn]

I am 'with' Will on this.  Please do no run away with the idea that the Notaire looks after your interests.

That cannot be further from the truth.  Some of you will know that I am a lawyer and supposedly one never gives up the fight especially as the Home Office in the UK continues to do what it is doing.  However totally another argument.

The UK is absolutely different the lawyer one uses for both sale and purchase is under an absolute duty to look after your interests (whether he or she discharges that is another issue) but we also have enquiries before contract and where if you know of anything adverse then you must (or so the law says) disclose.

Here you would be well advised to do lots of leg work yourselves.  By way of example where are the new THT lines going................no one really knows but ask.  Fosse up to scratch wiring that sort of thing.  Rights of way easements (old fashioned English legal phrase) electrical wiring and a whole host of related issues.

The Notaire is not going to ask those questions he is just interested in pocketing his fees paying the Fifth Republic what it needs and continuing to live the life of a well heeled Notaire.  Some of you might be interested to know that Brussels are continuing to chase Paris over the question of opening up the Notaires market.  Obviously marked advances have been made with EDF so do not hold your breath!

I am in the process of buying another property and am making myself a pain by asking and continuing to ask questions.  Its your capital you have worked hard for it so for me its just part of the plan.

 

 

[Will]

Llwyncelyn talks a lot of sense.

However, you should remember that the vast majority of sales in France, whether private or through agents and notaires, run smoothly and the parties involved are delighted with the results. You just have to be on your guard against becoming one of the few that go wrong.

 

[Steve Roberts]

Lots of helpful replies and informative advice. This will be my second purchase in France so a private sale is very tempting for the financial benefits. I pursue the private sale route and check out the local notaires office aswell.

Many thanks

Steve

[Wibblywobbly]

If only I knew how to sell a property in France I would be a happy man! I have mine with an agent who seems to be making no effort at all to sell the place (English too!) and due to work commitments over here I can't get over there to sort things out. I am the proud owner of a lovely place that is 60% renovated and which I can't get artisans to quote for let alone start work on tasks, and I can't find the right agent to sell it either!

Talk about catch 22??

Rob

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Commenting on the last posting in this thread from 'Wibblywobbly' - Not at all surprised that your house is not selling - you describe it as 60 per cent converted and of you inability to get local artisans to quote let alone start the work! Who in their right minds would want to take this on, especially when there is a wide choice of alternative properties on the market. You can hardly lay the blame for this at the agent's door.

Commenting on the role of the French notaire compared to the somewhat idealised picture of the 'Englsh solicitor' looking after the vendor's or purchaser's interests - French notaire's searches are infinitely more complicated than their British equivalent, with a compromis de vente (pre-contract) typically running to 30 or more pages with annexes, including the expert reports (lead, asbsestos, termites, energy efficiency), confirmation of dimensions if in a co-ownership (plus regulations of the syndic and past and future plans for the building), and a survey of 'natural and foreseeable technical risks' for the area, plus any actual or future proposals that might affect the value of the property, extensions added etc etc. All of this in French! If an uninitiated buyer (French or non-French) can tackle this lot of their own, then Good luck! And the 'English solicitor' working at a distance and without detailed knowledge of the area can only raise questions and rely on the local experts for the reply. I know, I have worked with them and in most cases they have simply slowed the process and generated additional costs to the vendor/purchaser.

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC

[jon]

Rob where is your property and what do you have?

[jon]

PD what work are you involved in?Where are you based?Are you from  UK

[Renaud]

Rob

I sympathise with your situation. The following is meant to be constructive -

I had to read your website for a while until I found out what the price was and where the property is. Also I think that the strange design of the site does not look like you are selling a property, you are hardly selling a dream - you are off-loading your own failed dream. Who is going to buy that?

Anne Maurice, the TV house doctor, advocates spending a bit to make lived-in houses look minimally-furnished and inviting. I think that you need to get a good website designer and the two of you should look at the properties for private sale on the websites mentioned above that have their own sites. What features on these sites make them attractive? Start from there.

Maybe you should sell the message that the hard renovation work is over and the purchaser can customise the final restoration to their taste.

We had to wait about a year until the team of artisans we wanted could start work. Things take time in France.

[londoneye]

Could I also suggest you might want to think of new pictures in the 'current condition' section.   The photos are very poor quality, and the outside ones have been taken in weather which hardly looks enticing.   I am sure you have done great work, but in truth if you have the photos don't seem to reflect it.

Even if you are working on the property, you really do need to remove all sign of your 'stuff' before taking photos.   Also, I can't get a feel for what any of the rooms are 'intended' to be, so therefore would have no idea if the house, when complete would suit me.

I did consider not posting this, because I don't like being negative, but you really do need to think about what everyone has said here, if you want a chance to sell this house.

[jon]

Is there a website showing this house?And the price?I think thst property is selling slowly at the moment....but it needs to be lively inside.

[Lassie]

I have done private sales and would have no hesitation in doing a private buy.  Its really not rocket science.  Look up www.pap.fr or buy a copy of Particulier a Particulier.  the website is in English too and explains absolutely all you need to know about procedures. Your Notaire will tell you all the constats you need and there are dozens of agencies offering the service. Your Mairie will supply a plan cadastre to reassure buyers you are legally in a registered house and your copies of taxe d'habitation and foncieres will show what you own and how much is paid out.  What else does a buyer want, except to use his eyes and common sense and spend out on a survey if nervous? If they are too feeble to contact EDF and Telecom, you can do it for them, but surely its better to direct your sale at the French market as there are many more buyers? Why target Brits? An ad in PaP will cost 75 euros as opposed to anything between 4% and 7% to use an agent who will only do what you can perfectly well do yourself.  Go for it.

[Gastines]

A very helpful constructive reply,Lassie, thanks for that.

Regards.

[jon]

Yes that was a good reply from Lassie......PAP....THE ONLINE NEWSPAPER....know it very well.Do also know that often a seller will advertise here...having previously placed the property with an agent and failed to get quick reaction.Sometimes they will price the property higher than the agents figure...sometimes not.

I feel that this newspaper attracts clients other than just thew French.

However French agents need to fill themselves with confidence and become very knowledgable about their properties......then the world will be their oyster.Many of the properties in France are very special and deserve appreciation.......and for an income...before tax of 30.000 euros and more that is not such a difficult job.

[Scarlette Satin]

Hi . Rob,
              Whilst you have my full sympathy, I'd like to say that my husband and I were happy to take on 'half a job' and will continue to renovate our fermette in Mayenne, the place looked cared for and well executed to date ...so we had no reservation in continuing the previous owners' vision. Any advice I could offer from a buyers perspective would be to offer clarity of design with a view to versatility for the next owner.Best of luck......

[Will]

[quote user="jon"].......and for an income...before tax of 30.000 euros and more ....
[/quote]

You've got to be joking? For the owner of the agency perhaps, but for a salaried negotiator or commission-only agent commecial (or agent mandataire) such sums are the stuff of wildest dreams.

[Ian]

We have bought both with agents and privately here in France - I'd go private if I could...as would most French people I hasten to add.

Some immos do a fab job of course, with an active "hot box", great pics, poetically written multi-lingual house details, exquisite web 2.0 enabled internet sites, prompt returning of calls, persuassive selling skills, regular targeted ads in magazines, prime high-street window locations, good support staff and they work as hard as a Mexican donkey.

In my experience most DO NOT dazzle with their brilliance.  As for them pleading poverty, with only 6-9% commission rates in a country with almost British style property price rises...well do the maths as they say!  Some of the poor devils are down to their last Range Rover ;-)

Great post by Lassie by the way.
Ian