Good UK/France lawyer

[gail_h]

I realise a lot of people go ahead with their purchase without UK assistance but can anybody reccommend a good specialist UK/France lawyer for buying property? We don't have a straightforward purchase as my husband is self-employed and want to put our french home in my name only as a safety net so if disaster happens in the future we have a house paid for in cash that we can either sell or move to  (I am not anticipating disaster we are just making sure we have all bases covered).

I know that this could affect inheritance tax so really I need to go ahead with the best advice I can get, as, I read in a book that even what you state as marital status in the first form can affect inheritance etc i.e. thay have two states of being married and who owns what.

Also I read that more and more people are getting their lawyers to hold the deposit and take care of the money and transfers as they can get better rates on exchange as they are doing it a lot and the money can arrive faster so that would be interesting to us too.

Could anybody also outline the rough costs involved of involving a UK lawyer? Do they work it out at a percentage of the house price such as tey do in the UK?

Lastly has anybody had any experience with using Britline?

I am quite apprehensive about the whole process, we will be paying for the house cash but only have a relatively small budget,  so having rough costs outlined will be a great help!

[darnsarf]

I think you are wise to consider using UK lawyers, specialising in France. We used one and felt very comfortable about it, even if the costs add up (you still need the Notaire etc). We used Russell-Cooke, 2 Putney Hill, London, SW15 6AB. Tel: 020 8394 6374. The lawyer we dealt with was Dawn Alderson. I think our costs came to about £2,500. As well as being a UK registered Solicitor, she is also qualified as a Avocat (in france). I'd have no hesitation in recommending them (no relationship, other than just as a satisfied customer). They were very clear about inheritance issues and thus the approach to use on buying. They base their costs on an estimate of the effort involved (hourly costs). So the cost increases the more complicated the issues, not I think the bigger the purchase.

As for money transfers, they will tell you when you need to transfer the money and to whom (the Notaire). I just opened an account with Moneycorp, got good rates and had them arrange the transfers. I'm not sure I was ever offered the transfer service through the lawyers though I wouldn't be surpirsed if they did it. Our Notaire in France didn't much like dealing with them (he told me he was very jealous of their fees!). But they kept him on his toes, adding some particularly important 'get out' clauses on the compromis.

Good luck!

[united]

We used John Howell & Co (Laurent Juillet) and paid around £1700. They did exactly what we wanted but I thought they were a little passive rather than pro-active. Having said that every time we asked for something it was done, I think I always want to be the most important client! When selecting lawyers there were 2 or 3 I approached who said they specialise in French purchases but were not practising solicitors so no Law Society comeback if it goes pear shaped. Howells gave advice on best method of ownership and also gave a detailed lists of costs entailed in their response for info. I think the cost were high because everything went well but it would have been the best £1700 I had spent if things had gone wrong. 

Re Money transfers I used Moneycorp as well, good rates (better than high street banks) and efficient. They also offer a 'futures contract' so you can remove currency fluctuations from the equation but remember you remove postive & negative movements. You pay 10% now to secure the rate on the total.

I've made a few transfers and asked for their views ..always the same buy now so you need to make your own mind up when to purchase Euros.

We followed advice from others here and transfered money only to the Notaire's account rather than Estate Agents.

Hope all goes well

[Rob Roy]

I don't quite understand why you all feel you need to use a UK lawyer using up hard earned income on their fees. It is like using the UK based 'hand holding' agencies who claim to help you after the purchase, charging you for the priviledge, when any decent French immobilier will do the same thing. What is wrong with using a French based avocat (one who can speak English if you prefer), if you feel you need anyone?   A lot cheaper, and the real expert on the job.

[nectarine]

I think there's a good case for using a UK lawyer if this is your first French purchase and you're unfamiliar with the whole purchasing process and also if ther's some complicated land issues.  We used a UK lawyer for our first purchase ten years ago, mostly because we weren't conversant with the language (French estate agent didn't speak English, nor did the notaire) and we suddenly received packets of French documents that made no sense to us!  there had also been a discussion about a right-of-way across our land and we couldn't find out if it had been nullified, or not ... hence our trip to the UK lawyer.  It was a good move - he gave us confidence that the right of way had definitely been cancelled (by the building of a wall, with the agreement of everyone who owned land around it) and he went through all the clauses and gave us advice on the purchasing regime (a tontine, as our inheritance issues were difficult).  All in all, we were happy with having our hands held by someone who spoke our language and, ten years later, I cannot remember his costs but they seemed good value to me.

Now we're selling that home and purchasing another and I'm quite happy to use French notaires since I'm familiar with the system, know what questions to ask and also have better French to converse with. 

So my response to the original question is:  use a UK lawyer if it gives you confidence and comfort.  There are many who won't agree with me on this point but, in the end, you are spending a heck of a lot of money and if you don't understand what you are putting your signature to, or the implications for inheritance (some of which, like the tontine, can only be enacted at the Acte De vente) then go ahead and get some extra English-speaking advice.  Remember, it's your money and you can spend it as you want.

Re. the money transfers - I use Moneycorp and have always had fast efficient service and a good rate.  Can't go wrong with them, I think. 

Good luck with your purchase.

[virginia.c]

If you pm me I can give you the name of a French solicitor who is with an English practice and who is handling my purchase.

[darnsarf]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]I don't quite understand why you all feel you need to use a UK lawyer using up hard earned income on their fees. It is like using the UK based 'hand holding' agencies who claim to help you after the purchase, charging you for the priviledge, when any decent French immobilier will do the same thing. What is wrong with using a French based avocat (one who can speak English if you prefer), if you feel you need anyone?   A lot cheaper, and the real expert on the job.[/quote]

I think using a UK lawyer is more than using a "UK based hand holding agency". It's not just a language thing, though that may be helpful (but undoubtedly cheaper to use a translation agency). Particularly, but not exclusively for first time buyers in France, it's very useful to have the differences in property law/buying process, inheritance etc explained, as compared to the British system. If the UK based lawyer is practicing as a Solicitor, then you have some comeback via the Law Society. Using a French Avocat is fine but in my case, I was in the UK, buying a house in France. It was far more convenient for me to pop to the lawyer's office to discuss things, in mother tongue, than to use a France based lawyer, regardless of whether s/he speaks English.

The French system is in my view very 'loose'. The Notaire is there primarily to ensure that the admin is sorted and the tax collected for the government. The Immobilier is there to sell the property and is working for the vendor. I'd like someone very clearly working to protect my interests. I'm amazed that so many people transfer large sums and sign a 'standard' CdV without professional guidance. Most of the time, it'll be fine. Often it won't.

 

 

[virginia.c]

absolutely endorse this view.  There is absolutely no way I would be proceeding without someone "protecting my interests". 

[jc]

There is nothing to stop you using your own notaire in France-no extra fees-they share the fee.

[darnsarf]

Yes, and we did that too. But a Notaire isn't a Lawyer - 'as we know it Jim'

[gail_h]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]I don't quite understand why you all feel you need to use a UK lawyer using up hard earned income on their fees. It is like using the UK based 'hand holding' agencies who claim to help you after the purchase, charging you for the priviledge, when any decent French immobilier will do the same thing. What is wrong with using a French based avocat (one who can speak English if you prefer), if you feel you need anyone?   A lot cheaper, and the real expert on the job.[/quote]

My reasons are simple, although I have been learning French I do not kow enough to be confident to complete a house purchase in France. We need to sort out our wills at the same time (something we haven't done in th UK yet) which to me would be best done at the same time as sorting out our French inheritance. What I also need to do is make sure that at least one of our houses is protected from reposession should the worst happen to our business (not that I can see anyway that can happen but its always best to be sure). So basically I need somebody or a firm who is proficient in both UK and French law. Luckily in this case we are not applying for a mortgage.

Lastly, somebody I know bought a house in France a couple of years ago. The lady who owned the house sold it twice and took both deposits, she sold it first to my friend then for a much higher price to another other couple. The lady obviously wanted to sell at the higher price and fought tooth and nail not to sell to my friend, she let the other couple move in rent free to try and make my friend pull out (which I believe would have lost them their deposits) and all sorts of tricks.

Having a good UK lawyer to my friend was essential. It took about 18 months-2 years to sort it out in the end.

I need somebody protecting my interests and my business and if I have to pay for the privilege then so be it.

[challca]

Yes - there is a very good one called Danielle Seabrooke, whose husband is a British chartered accountant. They run an organisation called A Home In France.  http://www.ahomeinfrance.com/indexeng.htm. Danielle was/is a UK Barrister and they live in Chinon. A very helpful and friendly couple.

In 2004 on a purchase in France change of use, and other legal niceties, (of which there were many!) she was very thorough and steered us through the mire. The service is not cheap, but without it we could have been very much more out of pocket.

We had been recommended by a friend who had also found her very efficient.

Good luck!

[cheminot]

I can strongly recommend Christine Collier who is based in Plymouth.

She is french, married to an english doctor and holds both french and english legal qualifications.

She did an excellent job for us for less than £1000.

cheminot

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Just one of the problems with using UK-based lawyers is that at most all they can do is check the paperwork. As this relies on information provided by third parties - the vendor, the local French estate agent, the French notaire handling the transaction - its accuracy depends entirely on these people. If there is an error in the (French) paperwork - for example an incorrect reference in the cadastral plan or a glitch in a planning application -the UK-based lawyer has no way of checking, in the way that a local French notaire can, simply by being on the spot.

If purchasers are concerned about 'having someone to protect their interests' the best solution is to appoint your own local French notaire at no additional cost. He/she will also advise, if asked, on matters such as inheritance, capital gains etc. Note that French avocats are primarily concerned with civil and criminal litigation and are more akin to British barristers rather than solicitors.

P-D de Rouffignac