New wood burner - possibly?

[ali-cat]

Hello all.

We have an open fireplace in our salon which the previous owners used infrequently and we have never used.  Having thought about it for some time we finally decided to look into installing a poele in the fireplace just to use to supplement our central heating on chilly evenings and provide some 'ambiance'.  We called into a local quincaillerie where the owner recommended a few models suitable for heating one room plus the hallway (10kw) and gave us a few brochures.

We called in the next day, chose a boiler and were informed that he would carry out the installation.  All well and good.  We then had to choose whether of not we wanted a black, flexible or inox flue etc and if we needed a chapeau. In hindsight he may have been asking what we needed rather than wanted.  The boiler is due to be installed next Wednesday.

What we should have done is some prior research.  Checking to see if the chimney needed cleaned,  I noticed that the chimney is basically a very narrow rectangle approximately 17cm maximum at its narrowest with a slight bend halfway up.  The required flue size is 15cm.  Having now read through the many posts on this forum I'm beginning to worry that installing the boiler will either be impossible or unsafe.  The chimney is actually enclosed within the 3 foot thick stone wall but I would estimate that there is only 4 inches or so of masonry between the chimney flue and wooden beams in the salon.  I don't know but suspect that the chimney breast was not contructed using fire resistant materials.

I think we need to arrange for our friend to come out and check that all is well - presumably he won't install a wood burner if it isn't safe to do so?.  I may be worrying unnecessarily but I'd prefer it if the 'ambiance' didn't extend to a house fire!

Any thoughts?

Mr Cat

[Cendrillon]

"I think we need to arrange for our friend to come out and check that

all is well - presumably he won't install a wood burner if it isn't

safe to do so?.  I may be worrying unnecessarily but I'd prefer it if

the 'ambiance' didn't extend to a house fire!"

I think that would be a wise move. Mention that you have some concerns about the installation and ask them to come and check the chimney and tell you which flue etc. is required

[ali-cat]

Having spoken again with the vendor/installer I'm a little more reassured.  We discussed and showed photos of the chimney aperture and wooden beams and he discussed various options to suit the particular needs of the installation depending on what they find when they come to install the poele.  The general gist was that they carry out these installations every day and that safety is a primary concern.

One remaining concern is that he mentioned a flexible liner to get around the narrow aperture and slight bend in the chimney OR reducing the diameter of the pipe.  If I picked him up correctly he said that one reduction in the diameter of the flue pipe is allowable.  I was under the împression that it was an absolute no no?

We'll see what he suggests on Wednesday and I'll try not to be too seduced by the fact that its due to get pretty cold here in the next few days.

Mr Cat

 

 

[mint]

Mr Cat, I presume you have requested a devis and that should itemise all the materials needed for installation.  Are you able to deduce from that what materials and method of installation?

We, too, have wooden floors and we had to have some sort of metal plate fitted into the chimney space and fire-resistant blocks (sorry, the name escapes me at the moment) all around the cavity that the flue goes through.

It may be that, like us, you'd need an exterior flue if the aperture in the chimney is too narrow.  Granted the exterior stainless steel flue looks a bit industrial but we'd rather that than wet trades messing about in our sitting-room.

By the way, I am glad you've chosen to have the poêle.  I'm sure Mrs Ali-Cat, not to mention all the little catties will greatly approve.

Also, I'm sure you know this already but, make sure the seller and installer are one and the same firm and keep all the receipts to send off to the tax office next year for your credit d'impôt (forgive me if you know this already). 

[Phil & Pat]

"... and keep all the receipts to send off to the tax office next year for your credit d'impôt"

But remember that the model you choose will have to have the Flamme Verte logo to qualify for the tax credit.

[mint]

P & P, yes, of course.  I thought of the Flamme Verte thingy as I wrote but, as often happens nowadays, by the time I'd finished the post, I'd forgotten what I was goint to say.

Wonder sometimes whether I shouldn't be taking more fish oil capsules or whatever!

Thanks for filling in the gap in my post!

[oscar]

Also check that you only pay 5.5% TVA for both, which is permitted as long as the seller is making the installation.

[ali-cat]

Thanks All.

Ali and the cats will certainly enjoy the new burner if all goes well.

The deal is that the supplier will install the burner for the full TVA cost of the burner or, in other words, we pay the 5.5% TVA for the burner and the difference pays for the installation.  This excludes of course the costs of the additional materials for a straightforward installation - baffle plate, flue tubing etc - but we know the per metre price so have a fair idea of the total cost.

If the installation isn't straighforward we will of course ask for a devis for any additional work.  I'm afraid I'd have to rule out an external flue Sweets.  The burner isn't a necessity - just for a little more coziness and for asthetics and I wouldn't want to lose the look of that side of the house plus a well established climbing rose.  If this is the only way it can be done, and no money has yet changed hands, we'll just have to cancel it.

Fingers crossed.

Mr Cat

 

 

 

 

[clarksinfrance]

Reducing the liner diameter is indeed an absolute NO. You can have upto a maximum of 2 changes in direction should not total more than 90 degrees. If your burner exits from the rear, a max of 150mm horizontal is allowed, before going vertical (though this will make your fire harder to light), a 90 degree "T" will allow a plug to be fitted at the bottom of the "T" to enable easier sweeping.

Flexi flue liner is to be:

1. At least 50mm from metal montant (used to build internal walls or box in structure), (if touching or embedded in chimney). Any combustible materials fixed to the metalwork to be at least 40mm away from surface of chimney.

2. At least 200mm from combustible materials, such as: joists, picture rails, dado rails, skirting boards, architraves, (if touching or embedded in chimney).

For combustible materials other than those mentioned above, if not more than 200mm from flexi liner there needs to be at least a 40mm airgap from the chimney surface itself; such as bookcases, shelves, tables, LAMBRIS etc.

There should be 225mm of hearth in front of the woodburner (300mm on an open fire) so that if anything spits out while fire is being stoked, shouldn't damage any floor coverings.

A flexi liner must not be connected directly to a fire, 1mm thick sloid stainless steel or enamelled pipe should be used to join the 2 (can't remember the length but 40cms rings a bell).

If using any metal fittings/joints then the socket (female end) should poit skyward.

The chapeau should not be connected directly to a flexi flue liner, again a ss tube should be used.

If your installer says a reduction is allowed, then personnally I would ditch him, and find a professional installer.

Flexi flue liners should be guaranteed for 10 years, but be aware condensates are extremely corrosive, and to check your liner regularly, I have known one or two need replacing after 5 years.

There are or course a myriad of other Normes and regulations that

apply, most are "get at able" on the internet (free) some you have to

pay a lot of money for.

I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL INSTALLER, but have done an awful lot of research on this subject, to fit many of my own fires. I never ceases to amaze me how many woodburners belonging to our friends, have been fitted incorrectly in some cases, downright dangerously in others.

Flexi liners can be purchased for approx €30 a metre and 1m connecting tubes about €25. A chapeau is about €40; Ts and bends about €20. For safety 2 people should install a fire (weight, roof work and moving fire) a reasonable installation should take 2 people a day to complete. (Though of course every situation is different). Just don't like to think of people (like a set of our friends) being charged €3000 for 6 meteres for a flexi flue liner.

Hope this helps, there are professional installers out there that read this forum, if they feel any of the info given is wrong, I apologise, they might like to correct anything I have written; and I would welcome being pointed in the direction of any updated current Normes and regulations to update and improve my knowledge.

[ali-cat]

Many thanks to all who posted or PM'd.

I'm happy to report  that the burner is now installed and working just fine with a T tube and rigid piping from this to the same diameter flexible pipe all the way up to the chapeau.  It took (the installers) a bit of huffing and puffing to get the flexible flue up,  but the job was completed in around 3 hours.  Lit it that evening gently in accordance with the installers' advice (doucement the first time to let the joints ease in - for a few seconds we thought he said don't light it for 2 weeks).  Total cost for the burner (€1,200) and installation was circa €1,600. The burner has worked fine since.

I doubt that the installation 'fully' meets the specifications posted by Clarksinfrance; e.g. the flexible tube does touch the chimney and there are beams and flooring within 200cm of this but I'm fairly paranoid about these things and have detected NO heat buildup anywhere apart from where it should be.  I wonder how many installations completely meet the recommended standards?

Anyway we are pretty pleased with the burner and installation.  If it were our only source of heating and was being used constantly I might be more concerned but for the occasional usage it gets I'm happy enough.

Cosy eh?

Mr Cat

[mint]

Ali and Mr Cat

Your burner is quite beautiful and I bet you can't now imagine what that fireplace would look like without the burner.

[ali-cat]

Why thank you Sweet 17, very kind.

The final choice of wood burner was of course Ali's - and she was right as usual.  The wood burner just finshes the room off, plus we certainly don't miss the draught that used to come down the chimney.

This was the best photo we've taken showing the burner.  The other photos aren't as good but do have cats curling up!

Regards

Mr Cat