LPG Gas Combi Boiler

[XLeblanc]

My Wife and I are leaving France due to my work commitments / promotion. Therefore the purpose of the house we currently live in there will change soon from main residence to Holiday home. We will visit as often as we can and whilst visiting for this short period we do not want to have to stoke the central heating boiler with logs.

 

I have therefore decided to fit a Gas Combi boiler and an underground LPG tank in the back garden of the house.

 

I have fitted a few Gas Boilers in the Uk and as such have a bit of experience in doing so. I am also paid in pounds sterling so sourcing one there makes economic sense.

 

What I need to know is, are there any Combi LPG gas boilers that are available in the UK and France so I can buy a model which technically could have been purchased in France.

 

Is the LPG pressure outlet of the tank suitable for a UK sourced boiler without replacing the regulator.

 

I would source a boiler in France but frankly I am sick of paying over inflated prices for goods there.

 

Cheers

[Le Plombier]

If you are going to install the boiler yourself you will need to know the gas regulations

The gas distributor will install the tank and responsibility for the tank rests with him

The gas pipe from the tank, boiler installation, ventilation, installation location etc rests with you or the person who does the installation

The entire installation is subject to issue of a certificate of conformity, the distributor will not supply gas until they have been supplied with a their copy of the certificate. The French gas regs are much more severe than the UK regs, they cover everything in absolute detail

You can pay Qualigaz to conduct the inspection and issue the certificate but be aware they are very strict and they will fail you on the smallest digression from the gas regulations . You would then have to repeat the process again until you get it right. At around 150 euros a time you had better know what you are doing

It is unlikely that you will find a gas professional to issue a certificate on your behalf for work you have done, I only issue them on my own work, not even for a fellow professional, the penalties for a professional for non conformance are very severe and it's not worth the risk of signing off another person's work

Note in particular that the copper gas supply, due to the pressure must be brasure forte, soft solder is not acceptable

If your boiler does not have the French NF mark don't even bother

I have installed UK range cookers here, without the NF mark, but it has taken me hours of argument with the Qualigaz inspector who is now a good mate of mine to accept the appliance

In the long run you will probably save money by paying a local artisan to install a French boiler

Le Plombier

[Gluestick]

Evaluate:

1.    A wood burning boiler running on pellets or chips:

2.    A Wood Gasification Boiler and a Thermal Store.

Far Cheaper than gas: renewable resource.

One has to simply burn the gasification boiler for three hours per day and this charges the thermal store and one then has sufficient stored heat energy for 24 hours.

 

[Kitty]

I was toying with the idea of burying my gas citerne but then was put off by someone who told me that it is difficult to change gas suppliers if you do.  It is only by changing suppliers (as I did 18 months ago) that you can negotiate on gas prices - I got a fixed gas price reduction for 18 months, which saved me about 400 euros.  When I approached three suppliers, they all tried to encourage me to bury the citerne, which is huge and therefore costs more to fill.  They also were pressing me to pay rent, when I had the capital to buy it.

Just a thought - as the house will be a résidence secondaire and you will not spend much time there in the winter (I assume), you may only need a small citerne.

It is a minefield.  If you want to know more, I can dig out my papers and give you more detailed information on my negotiations.

 

 

[Le Plombier]

The freestanding cisterns are the same size as the buried ones

The supplier I use does not charge rent and the credits and incentives they give for a buried cistern means you get the tank installed for next to nothing

You should always talk to the plumber and ask what deal he can get you with a supplier

Le PLombier

[XLeblanc]

Thanks all for the replies.

It is mentioned above that the regulations should be followed and copper pipe work from the tank should be brazed due to the pressures involved.

Am I to assume from that. That the pressure reduction / regulation is achieved at the boiler itself so that you then have High pressure gas inside your house? Normally (in the UK) gas boilers rely on only 21mbar of pressure to operate as that is what the pre-meter regulator reduces the mains supply to prior to entry to your house.

Is there any obvious reason that I could be missing that a vaillant condensing boiler in the UK is £1000 whilst in France it could be €3000 or more depending on the particular Highwayman you buy it from. Or am I missing something fundemental?

I do not mind paying for a service or product so long as I feel I am not being ripped off and sadly during our five years living in France nearly everything I have bought or artisans who have done work for me have left me feeling this way. Is it just me?

I have worked on intrumentation and analysers fitted to pipework on and offshore which has fed straight into the UK gas network Pipes that have supplied a high percentage of gas for the whole of the UK, St Fergus gas Terminal, Theddlethprpe Gas terminal and Bacton . This pipework contained gas at pressures not many domestic plumbers would have come across. The regulations and competance levels involved in this type of work far exceed for obvious reasons the regulation of Corgi in the uk and whoever regulates such installations in France. So I do know a little about gas, it's properties and it's dangers.

Cheers

[jondeau]

I have no idea what the French do with their bulk storage vessels never having seen one, but I can't imagine that they would run an uncontrolled supply pipe from one into a house.

Bulk propane is normally stored at a pressure of about 7 bar, but this can rise as high as 10 bar in hot weather though a buried tank is unlikely to reach this. Still, it's not a pressure you would want indoors. I can't see this being likely, it would be foolhardy in the extreme.

Why is a Vaillant boiler three times the price in France ?

 

Err........ if you ever find out let me know.

 

[La Guerriere]

I think all boilers are more expensive in France "because they can". There ain't no logic.

[XLeblanc]

"Note in particular that the copper gas supply, due to the pressure must be brasure forte, soft solder is not acceptable"

My comment was in relation to the above statment. I would not expect that the tank pressure would be available inside the house.

Why are most things more expensive in France? Things were more expensive before the fall in the value of the pound never mind now.

[Le Plombier]

Gas pressure in the tank 6 bar plus dependant upon temperature etc

Delivery pipework from tank is 1.5 bar up to the DDS valve which must be adjacent to the boiler

After the DDS 37mbar to the boiler

From the DDS to the boiler copper tube, flexible not permitted

Any gas supply over 40mbar must be brasure forte, run in the correct manner, through ventilated areas and all fittings must comply with the regs

You must also submit the installation to a 3bar pressure test

Your supply will be propane

Fitting for natural gas, propane and butane all are different

There are all sorts of different valves, DDS, ROAI etc., etc

If you don't know the gas regs then I suggest you don't do it yourself because you probably will never get your gas tank filled

Le Plombier

[XLeblanc]

Thanks for the information above, very helpful.

So what sort of money ball park would it cost to get someone like you to manage the installation of the tank install the pipework to the boiler, brazed offcourse, Fit the boiler, DDS valve and get the test done by the inspector.

Would a plumber take on such a job or would they only be interested in a full installation job?

Lastly where are you based?

Cheers

[Le Plombier]

Get the tank from a distributor, they install and certify the tank

Installation of the gas main depends on how far it is trenched, over 20m from house then exta external shut off valve etc

A plumber may be interested but if your boiler is not french NF mark he probably would not touch it

Provided he is Qualigaz registered he will issue the certificate

I don't agree that boilers are much dearer here, UK normally 9 to 14kW output, France 20 to 35kW output

Plus French boilers incorporate hot water production where required as opposed to a separate hot water cylinder

Try to buy a 30kW boiler in the UK with say 130 litre of hot water storage and see what price you get

Lastly I only try to advise people on the forum, I do not offer work or services, I have more than I can cope with without looking for more

Le Plombier