central heating devis - is this a silly price

[confused of chalus]

We've just has the first devis from a plumber to install underfloor central heating ( and all the other other plumbing in the house) As costs on the whole renovation project seem to be rocketing we plan to lay the underfloor pipes etc ourself. The plumber's hourly rate is reasonable, so are most of the other items on the devis BUT - he's charging 14,211.90 Euros for supply of 'pompe a chaleur Ideal Standard Haute Temperature RO 14/1 avec ballon d'ECS 300 litres.

This seems a ludicrous price for a boiler so the question is - are we being taken for mugs here or is this the price? Would it be cheaper to get a boiler from UK andwould it successfully marry with French plumbing?. Would you get all the underfloor heating stuff from UK? Or have we just madly underestimated the cost of central heating. We might have to wrap up warm round the woodburner at this rate. Any ideas?

[Nick Trollope]

Solution is simple - get another couple of devis!

 

[Chancer]

Confused, I think you may be [:)]

Une pompe à chaleur is not a boiler it is a heat pump, normally used with geothermal ground source heat, they cost far more so look around for price but dont be surprised if he has marked it up significantly as is the norm.

A 300 litre ballon d'eau chaude with indirect heating coil is also very pricy.

[confused of chalus]

We were planning to use solar panels topped up with electricity. Have we got it all wrong? Did we get a quote for the wrong thing? And yes , I chose the name (confused) wisely - we are hard working amateurs who, we think, know our limits - hence professional electricity/plumbing/gros oeuvres. Help and advice all taken seriously.

[RicandJo]

Our plumber quoted us for one of these;

http://www.dedietrich-heating.com/products/product_ranges/wall_hung_boilers/gas_condensing_innovens

Innovens MC25 BIC, for 75 sq metres heated floor downstairs plus hot water to one kitchen and two bathrooms..  Can't remember what the exact price quoted was but I think around 4500 Euro for the boiler plus installation.  40% of the boiler cost is redeemable against your income tax in France too if you are here permanently.  Like you I intend to lay the pipework myself and get the plumber to connect the boiler and certify the system.  I specifically asked if these can support an external pump, which was confirmed by the plumber.

With these boilers, no need for a separate ballon d'eau.

As for the heating stuff itself we are getting that from UK - http://www.underfloorheatingsystems.co.uk/ £1700 plus VAT for the design plan, pipework, manifold, pump, control computer and 4 Danfoss zone stats inc delivery to France.  Our plumber has seen the spec sheets from UK and is more than happy to certify it.

I'd say shop around a bit!!!!

[Le Plombier]

A pompe a chaleur is heat pump and these are much more expensive than a conventional boilers

I assume from your information he is probably quoting you for an aerothermie installation, it would be better if he is quoting for geothermie as you get better performance but you don't give enough information

I install geothermie, as a guide for a 200 sq metre property with radiators and underfloor, ground loops or use of wells, heating and hot water with good quality equipment you should be looking at 40k euros approx

A lot of these eco systems do not perform in all conditions, need boiler or electric elements to top up heat and therefore do not deliver real cost savings

Aerothermie is good for mordern well insulated properties but not good for old poorly insulated stone properties

Geothermie is the only one that delivers full performance with real saving on running cost

I see all sorts of cheap alternative energy installations which frankly turn out to be a complete waste of money

Le Plombier

[jondeau]

Forty thousand Euros !!

How on earth can that be cost effective.

[Chancer]

I will answer that one!

Assume that you are retired and sitting on a pot of money which you had invested for income, you may have been getting 6.5% return last year but are now getting 0.5%.

Yuo live in a large property currently heated by oil or LPG, your heating and hot water bills are €2k per year.

You invest €40k which is currently bringing in €200 per year in interest in a geothermal system saving you €1500 on your heating and hot water a net gain of €1300 per year and a house which is probably worth more and certainly more desirable to a buyer.

I know what business I would be in at the moment [;-)]

[RicandJo]

So you gain 1300 per year which means you have recouped the initial outlay after 31 years, by which ime you're probably 6 ft under.

Reckon I'd rather spend 40k enjoying myself........

[confused of chalus]

Oh to have the 40,000 euros - what fun to decide whether to get a swanky central heating system,  kitchen, bathroom. [I]I've just thought - swimming pool........ But we havent. So that solution is out.

Many thanks to all you experts out there. Got a couple of hints, and some concrete leads. Thanks for the emails too. More devis awaited.

kathy 

[Le Plombier]

On a recently completed geothermie installation the client, by his own calculations reckons a payback of five and a half years

Running costs 1100 euros as against 5000 euros for fossil fuel

From the cost you need to deduct the cost you would pay for a conventional system as you would have that outlay any way

The extra cost for the geothermal installation is subject to deduction of up to 8000 euros tax credit on the major equipment

The balance is the sum of money for the payback calculation

In the current climate it is worth the investment for the increase in the value of your property

If you go down this route it is vital that you employ a company who are expert and use the best of equipment

I see far to many alternative energy installations, particularly aerothermie, that have major problems and issues over controllability and performance with some very unhappy clients. Most systems such as solar, when used for heating, fall short of provision of a complete solution and require top up energy at the coldest periods. Wood burners are fine so long as you are happy humping wood and ash all the time and they go out if you don't feed them

With gethermie you switch it on and leave it alone, nothing to do but adjust the programmer if you choose. The only back up is an electric element in the chauffe eau, this is there for provision of hot water in the unlikely event the pompe a chaleur is out of service

Le Plombier

[Quillan]

Just crunching those numbers I make it nearer 9 years.

Was this installation in a new house and if so how much extra would it cost (with digging up the existing floor, making good afterwards and re-tiling the floor etc) to install it in say a 10 year old house?

Aerothermie is much easier and cheaper (about €5k for the kit for 170M2 house and another €5k for installation although I installed it myself, this is based on me fitting it to the rest of the house and what I have already spent) to install in to an existing house. I installed it last year in some areas of my house and at the moment it looks like I have reduced my existing electric heating bill by about 50%. I can't say exactly because I will have to wait till the end of the year for a bill to compare exactly like with like. One thing we have noticed is we felt much warmer in our lounge which has a vaulted ceiling. This I believe is because unlike 'normal' radiating heat systems the air is 'stirred up' and circulates round instead of being stuck up in the ceiling.

I think that geothermal is the way to go if you have a new house and the installation is carried out during the build and you intend to live in it for 10 years plus. For houses that are already built there are good alternatives around that are less disruptive and quicker to install while your living there. The thought of having all my floor dug up, the mess and dust for 6 to 8 weeks or longer at the speed some French artisans work quite frankly puts me off.

One final question, does installing geothermal heating at a cost of €40k put €40 plus on to the value of your house or does it simply make it more attractive to buyers?

[AnOther]

[quote user="Le Plombier"]Running costs 1100 euros as against 5000 euros for fossil fuel[/quote]5000 Euros/PA for fossil fuel, that's some big or inefficient property you're client is running [:-))]

Admittedly my house is of 70's origin so better insulated than an old stone house one would expect but nevertheless it is 4 bedrooms and our combined energy bills for electricity, bottled gas for cooking, oil for central heating (1995 vintage boiler) and a few stere of wood for the wood burner in the lounge are pretty close to JR's figure of €2000.

We do not like to be cold so are not fanatically frugal !

[jondeau]

Like anything relatively new on the market fantastic claims are made for it......I remember double glazing companys advertising 50% savings on your heating costs.

(in actual fact 50% of the 10% you lose through the glass)

 

Somebody somewhere is recouping their development costs on this at the moment......wait a couple of years and you'll be able to buy the bits on E-Bay for pennies. After all it is not rocket science.....you could knock up your own equipment out of a couple of old fridges, a length of hosepipe, two Tesco bags and a couple of  rubber bands.

 

 

 

 

[Quillan]

An old acquaintance of mine got in to the green/environmental thing about 20 years ago. We all thought he was mad but he said its the next best money making thing. He's now a multi millionaire, he's awash with money and can't spend it quick enough. Not quite the fool we thought he was a the time. It's now a world wide multi billion dollar business all this going green stuff. Some people of course are out to get anything green, there is a program on TV tonight (I think) about the Ford Think car (no pun intended) and the fact that under pressure from the petrochemical companies they are going to crush the lot as they come off lease. Anyway we are drifting a bit but there's a shed load of money to be made out of being green.

[BIG MAC]

Slightly off topic but I am replacing floor slabs in my old stone built house in any case to get levels correct. What is the normal make up of a slab to receive underfloor matrix in France?

Reason for asking is I  recently noted an American system whereby they insulate the oversite then place vapour barrier and reinforcement tying the matrix to the rebar before casting the slab in one hit. The rebar I guess acts a bit like an element helping heat spread. I quite like the idea of this method as it is not as thick in section as a slab / insulation / screed combination.

Any thoughts?

[Le Plombier]

Concrete base slab to start, I assume that is your interpretation over oversite

Above that insulation, tube network, then screed or chape liduide

Insulation thickness is dependant upon room situation, number of external walls, on ground or above sous sol etc, needs to be assessed

From the top of the slab to the finish level of the chape liquide 120 to 150mm, insulation thickness being the main criteria

Then floor finish thickness on top, if tiles both the tile and the tile cement must be suitable for underfloor heating to ensure no loss of heat transfer

For the chape liquide best to use a specialist, if you lay your own screed be sure to incorpoate the correct additive to the mix to ensure there is no entrained air in the screed which will reduce heat transfer

A properly laid chape liquide floor will be perfectly level and immensesly stong so no need for a reinforcing mesh

Le Plombier

[BIG MAC]

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=underfloor+heating&hl=en&emb=0&aq=-1&oq=#q=radiant+floor+heating&hl=en&emb=0&start=20