Anyone heating their property with a Heat Pump?

[Quillan]

The blog link does not work for me so I don't know what the chap is going on about.

You have to get things in to perspective with all DIY shops both in France, UK and probably everywhere else, a shop is only as good as its staff and I think we have all at some time or another felt we have not deserved the service that we thought we should get.

Personally I'm not a great fan of Brico Depot either, full of fat French and Brits with builders crack and sweaty armpits ramming their overloaded trolleys in to the back of your legs. Always 4 of something when you want 5 but then sometimes you find the 5th piece in the next isle because somebody has taken it by mistake and can't be *rsed to put it back where it should go. It is a stack it high sell it cheap shop but if you want brand named goods then a Makita battery drill is a Makita battery drill and if its 30 Euros cheaper in Brico Depot then I will get it from there.

My favorite shop for DIY is Leroy Merlin (I bet somebody has had a bad experience from the somewhere), nice staff, nicer people, easy to return stuff (well in Perpignan it is), problem is the AC units there are considerably more than at Brico Depot although not as expensive as the ones in the link given earlier.

I have bought doors and a roof lite from Brico Depot and had no problems, their electrical stuff is OK, we have one of those big hydro showers from them, no problems and I understand their windows represent outstanding quality for their price and are normally in stock.

Like all things in life, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[Frank]

Hi Quillan

Thanks for your reply, It all seems to working fine now after the chap who installed it came out and explained a few things to me!!  The only prob now is the icing up, (which I am told is normal) but then that only happens when the temp is well below zero (minus 4th other night!), and according to the booklet that came with the units, building a case around it should stop it from happening.  So will plod on through winter, warm as toast now[:)], and see how it is in spring. 

Thanks Le Plombier, I didn't think of that, but I have solved the problem by having them both set to the same temps[:P]!!!!

Thanks again[:D]

Jetlag

[sid]

I was interested in the answer to the OP's question. There's plenty of opinion and theory here but only one person has posted actual home experience! That particular person appears to be getting great results! So who is right?

Sid

[Quillan]

I don't know how long Jetlag has had his units, I have not had mine for very long (about 8/10 weeks) but they work well. I just had my annual electricity bill (we pay monthly so this is the end of year/settle up one). I have burnt over 400 Euros less electricity this year (my bill is normally around 2,000 Euros but then I run a B&B). I could say that this saving is because of these units, if it is then its a brilliant although to be honest when I have had them for a year I will make up my mind. I think my money was more likely saved by the fact that last winter was mild down south. I do keep monthly records of my meter readings to help me budget. I also use wood and petrol (paraffin in English) as we are on Tempo so there is a lot to factor in. Being on Tempo I really hope to score when we have white days because I think that heating by these units will be cheaper than burning wood or petrol on white days. I also don't know how things will get offset when the summer comes and will we be seduced in to using them to cool the house, we have not had cooling in the house before.

So Jetlag if you have had yours for a while have you noticed any energy savings?

[Frank]

Like you Quillan we have had ours for about 3mths.  Our heating was originally with a woodburner (Poelle) and last yr it cost 550euro for the wood.  Our initial calculations on usage based last month is that the units are a lot cheaper than the wood, eg. from our calculations, it will take 10months with the units on high running 24/7 to use the same amount of money in electric!  But we will know better in January when we have our two month reading then we can do a like for like, but from what we have seen, they seem more cost effective than wood and and is a lot cleaner with a better heat distribution to the woodburner.  Will post again in January after our bill has arrived and let you know the results, hopefully our calulations will be right[:D]. 

[krusty]

Why do French installers charge so much ? I have had 2 quotes 4000e and 3500 to install one Daikin unit , I have found the price of the unit only 1000e . Talk about rip off Britain welcome to rip off  France.

[Quillan]

Its the system, assuming you are going to claim half back as a tax rebate, half for him, half for you. Bit like UK roofers when theres a big storm  [;-)].

[Chancer]

I bought one of the last generation R407 (I believe) non invertor, allegedly not so green or efficient ones and I am absolutley delighted with it especially as it only cost €129, it was also the last of the ones without the idiot proof  expensive connectors dry break connectors and (if you are lucky) precharged pipes which are the cause of most of the high level of units returned.

It is definitely very economical, I am an all electric household and was using nearly 900KWH/month averaged over the year using electric panneau rayonnants, this reduced to 560 per month with a combination of night storage heaters and the reversible clime.

This winter I have reduced the settings of the storage heaters and am using the clime for heat in the evenings and consumption is even lower although I will wait for my February bill before calculating.

So for me a saving of 33% on my metered units but if you consider that all my cooking, lighting water heating and not to mention compressors, cement mixers etc while I am building are unchanged then the saving on heating costs alone is much higher. One also has to consider that my summer consumption is higher when I use the air conditioning but this is reflected in the averaged monthly figures I quote.

I cannot see the downside of reversible climes although at €4k installed I could [:(] they give a very gentle soothing heat and can cool in the summer although for me that is probably one 50th of the usage, they can take a little time to switch on and react (although not 24 hours like my storage heaters) and I find that it is best to leave them on the veille setting at thsi time of year so they are always ready to go ASAP.

[krusty]

[quote user="Quillan"]Its the system, assuming you are going to claim half back as a tax rebate, half for him, half for you. Bit like UK roofers when theres a big storm  [;-)].[/quote]

But they told me you can not claim tax back for one unit , you have to have a full system ...I did not dare ask how much.

[krusty]

quote "J.R's gone native"

 it was also the last of the ones without the idiot proof  expensive connectors dry break connectors and (if you are lucky) precharged pipes which are the cause of most of the high level of units returned.

Are these the idiot proof ones you refer too ?

[IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z308/elmerfudd-666/acquickfit2.jpg[/IMG]

ie the ones for me [:D]

So did yours have pre made off cooper pipe ?

And did you need to get a fridge engineer to gas your system ?

[krusty]

Wow .....did not want to see this

quote "The average life span of an air conditioner is about 6-7 years, but it can be prolonged through proper maintenance by qualified technicians on a regular basis."

[Gyn_Paul]

That looks unduly pessimistic to me: even if an aircon is built to the standard of the cheapest Turkish fridge, everyone knows that, 15 years later, the last piece of plastic has fallen off the door yet the compressor is still going strong. You may not be able to get the freezer door open for the accretion of ice, but that’s another story!

paul

[krusty]

I agree GP , it was something I found on a website , I just through it in to keep the topic alive, I am still trying to convince myself into getting one [:D]

[Gyn_Paul]

I know what you mean.

I'm having the same internal dispute about getting a gassification wood boiler for the CH. If a standard wood-fuelled boiler runs at 70 - 78% efficiency, and a gassification one achieves 94 - 97%, is it really worth 3 times the price when wood is 35 E/cube ?

And while I mull that over I'm going to take advantage of our beautiful Limousin sunshine and go and dig a few more holes for fruit trees.

paul

[Chancer]

[quote user="krusty"]quote "J.R's gone native"

 it was also the last of the ones without the idiot proof  expensive connectors dry break connectors and (if you are lucky) precharged pipes which are the cause of most of the high level of units returned.

Are these the idiot proof ones you refer too ?

[IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z308/elmerfudd-666/acquickfit2.jpg[/IMG]

ie the ones for me [:D]

So did yours have pre made off cooper pipe ?

And did you need to get a fridge engineer to gas your system ?

[/quote]

Sorry it has taken me a while to reply Krusty.

I have not actually seen the dry break pipes but would guess that your photo is of one of the couplings.

Mine indeed did have two rolls of pre-flared pipe, these I cut down to avoid heat and evaporant loss and reflared them, this way I was able to lap and seal the joints. I did not need to get it regassed as the procedure was as follows:

The external unit was precharged with excess gas to allow for purging and bleeding the pipes, the flow and return bosses had shut off and bleed valves. Once the pipes were connected you opened one of the valves for 20 seconds (I cant remember the timings but you should get the idea) the opened the bleed valve on the other one for 5 seconds, this had to be done a couple of times to before opening both of the valves fully.

You were advised to wear leather gloves to avoid frostbite, I remember thinking what a great system (remember it only cost €129) apart from me adding a tiny bit to the hole in the ozone layer and that it probably wouldnt be allowed in the UK.

Then I read that B&Q were selling similar ones for £400 but with precharged units and pre(not)charged dry break pipes. Apparently most of the pipe kits in the shop had either lost their refrigerant or had never been charged, customers after having fitted two or 3 sets of empty ones had by then lost most of their refrigerant before being given good ones and hence the units would not run.

I regret not buying more of them at the time but it was a gamble that at the time I did not know would pay off, I would like to buy 6 more units for the apartments that I am constructing but I dont like the idea of paying for something that may either not be charged or could leak in service especially with after sales being what they are in France.

My plan is to buy uncharged ones at the best price I can, connect them up and get them all gassed at the same time.

I hope that this answers your question

[krusty]

Thanks JR.

I am now thinking of getting a Hitachi unit that comes with flexible hoses , but screw joints not push and click.

[Btuckey]

[quote user="sid"]

I was interested in the answer to the OP's question. There's plenty of opinion and theory here but only one person has posted actual home experience! That particular person appears to be getting great results! So who is right?

Sid

[/quote]

Well Sid.  We have built a new house with under floor heating and geothermal generation and couldn't be more pleased with it.  After a period of settling down the temperature is constant throughout the house, unlike the wood and radiator system in our previous abode in the same village!  Like ams' it is reversible in summer and we have been able to get onto the Tempo scheme.  (EDF's call centre said that we couldn't have it but the nice lady in the Carcassonne office said "no problem"!)

Devon:  We are also on rock but were able to excavate a suitably deep pit.  There are some pictures at  http://briantuckey.fotopic.net/ 

Cheers.

Brian 

[Le Plombier]

Be careful with the underfloor cooling in the summer, my insurer will not cover me for underfloor cooling and I am not alone

Cooling is the best way to produce a cracked floor with underfloor, unusable with radiators etc due to surface condensation

Geothermie is the best for heating, giving the best performance for the money in regard to running costs and definately my preferred green installation by a clear mile

However air conditioning split systems are the best and safest method of cooling

Le Plombier

[tonyv]

Brian, the pics are really impressive. Did you manage/perform the geothermie installation yourself, or did you get professional advice? I want to install geothermal in my renovation, and am looking for all the advice I can get.

[Btuckey]

[quote user="tonyv"]Brian, the pics are really impressive. Did you manage/perform the geothermie installation yourself, or did you get professional advice? I want to install geothermal in my renovation, and am looking for all the advice I can get.

[/quote]

Hi Tony,

We did a lot of research before we set out to build our house and the only organisation that readily answered our questions was Sofath.  The only down side was that we had to go to their approved installer.  Having said that, he liaised with the house builder and suggested two organisations to lay the all-important Chape.  (The building company was happy to work around our contractors but made it plain that the heating was outside of their contract/commitment.)  A very important part of the installation service was the planning stage.  Sofath produced data from a French geological organisation which gave the month by month average soil temperature for our part of the Aude.  When combined with our house plans giving the floor space and relative temperatures of each room, it enabled Sofath to provide a detailed document showing the pitch of the under-floor heating pipes in each room and the area and depth of the heat capture pipes in the garden.  This information is so core to a successful implementation that I would not have wanted to 'wing' it with a DIY installation.

If you take the cost of hiring your own planner and sourcing the 'bits', it might be cheaper to take a package from a manufacturer rather than doing it yourself.  YMMV of course!

Cheers.

Brian

[Le Plombier]

Brian

You are correct in your statement

I install geothermie and, whilst I am qualified to design the system, the manufacturer that I use will not allow this and thay take responsibilty for the design

Whilst thay take responibilty for the overall design the design of the underfloor heating rests with the underfloor heating manufacturer

It all comes together with the client getting a fully designed, warranted and insured installation which all parties are happy that a proper solution is being provided

Properly designed and installed geothermie is the best route for alternative energy

The manufacturer I use also tests and sets up the heat pump to the design performance and parameters before despatch from the factory so I and the client know a tested item of equipment is being delivered

Watch out for the next generation of heat pumps, thay will use carbon dioxide as the refrigerant and will deliver hot water at an amazing 65C

Le Plombier 

[Chancer]

Wow CO2 as the refrigerant!

I wonder how long before some aptly named "Eco"  or "Carbon Footprint" parasitic organisation decides to exploit this.

Just think by using up the worlds CO2 and of course paying them a kings ransom  you might be able to light your house using incandescent bulbs taken out of a Bolivian dwelling that is now poorly lit with energy saving bulbs paid for by big business Carbon Credits [6]

[Théière]

Very interesting thread.

On a side issue, I wondered how come Co2 in fizzy drinks could be interpreted as raising your carbon footprint?

I think I will wait for the next generation heat pump.

 

[Le Plombier]

Carbon Dioxide will be dealt with in the same way as all refrigerant gases

Under UK, and I believe European legislation, any machine with more than 3kg of refrigerant gas has to be monitored for leakage

When evacuating gas it has to be captured and not be allowed to escape to atmosphere

The percentage of leakage and loss allowed is very low indeed

Le Plombier

[tonyv]

Thanks, Brian, for your views, theyre very useful. Certainly, I'd agree it needs to be professionally designed. Judging by your "pit", it seems evident that the groundwork is also best left to the experts! I'll get in touch with Sofath in the spring.

Given that I'm digging up my ground floor anyway (to replace the tiles), I may as well dig a bit deeper, and lay the pipes. Interesting that yours are clipped to the base; I have been led to believe that you need to lay down a plastic egg-box like structure to contain the pipes. Any idea how deep I need to excavate the floor? I've been told 30cM; to allow for 15cM of insulation, plus 10cM for the pipework, and 5cM for the screed and tiles.

I guess I can dig up the floor myself, and allow the experts to lay the pipes...