Oil Fuel Cantral Heating

[Gluestick]

[quote]

Gluestick has done buckets of numbers but can't find a conclusion (I do like his choice of Gasification, I'm about to do that here)[/quote]

Oh I have!

Wood Gasification is the obvious choice.

A Three Hour burn once per day in the depths of Winter should provide sufficient stored energy for 24 hours CH. All provided the Thermal Store is big enough.

Now simply a matter of the optimal boiler and thermal store.

Thereafter wood storage is the final problem to crack: plus regular and reliable supplies of viable (two Year Aged) fuel at the right price.

However, Andrew, your post beggars the quesion..............

If your Solar Installation  is so effective, then why on earth do you need a Wood Gasification system?

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Le Plombier"]

Gluestick

The heat pump manufacturer that I use for geothermie installations has heat pumps that have been installed and running for 30 years

Coupled with zero maintainance that's pretty good for reliability

Mind you all this manufacturer makes is heat pumps and they have tremendous experience in the design, performance and operation of this type of equipment.

It's just a question of research and picking the right equipment.

Le Plombier

[/quote]

Interesting..........

Now, the sort of Straw Poll here:

Would seem to provide a bare average of say 12 years give or take a fraction.

30 year old systems would not be using the same refrigerant gas: and the compressor seals would be wholly different.

Indeed, most common refrigerant gases used 20 years ago are now banned.

This is the one area in which I still exercise some significant concern.

"Slinkies" and bore hole connections have a very long life, ideally: circa 50 years.

Which still leaves the question of amortisation of capital costs hanging.

 

[BIG MAC]

"Which still leaves the question of amortisation of capital costs hanging"

Unless you sell and benefit from an increased value and saleability of the property concerned

[Gluestick]

No, Mac.

I mean the comparision of the fuel costs for say Gasification of Wood, as against GSH.

Indeed, practially, one has to take the cost of ANY system as a datum (say an Oil-Fired Boiler), and thereafter consider the extra capital costs associated with GSH: and the difference thereafter between the projected cost of electricity against oil: and then plot it out to see at what point the GSH becomes cheaper.(i.e  once you have amortised the extra capital cost, how much is being saved on the fuel cost to the point where the capital equipment needs renewal).

And here is where Solar scores: since the running costs (Electricity for control gear and circulating pump/s) are minimal.

Thus it amortises much faster.

I'm sure we have all seen some quite incredible claims for "Savings" made by purveyors of some of this kit!

 

[nemltd]

Hi, I've been searching and asking questions all over the place about heating and hot water for our house in the Gers 32.

I've just stumbled across this forum and there seems to be alot of experience here. So I thought I would run my rationale through here and see if anybody could see any major errors in it!

I have explored the geothermal option, air and ground source, and for my pocket, the cost is prohibitive, as is solar and wind. We currently have 9 radiators, probably 20+ years old and a defunct oil fuel boiler in the basement. The hot water is currently on electric, about 120l tank, about 6 years old.

Our house is 150m square with a sous sol of the same area, built in 1968 of concrete and brick. The loft is insulated but the basement is not, yet. Our ceiling height is 2.435m and the existing tiled floor will need tiling over. No double glazing.

The running costs boasted for Air source heat pumps look immpressive but I think the lower maximum water temperatures with this system will not be sufficient for us in the winter months, given we would have to keep our old radiators as opposed to installing underfloor heating, which is recommended with heat pumps.

We have decided to go with an oil fueled boiler for hot water and heating with a dual 200l tank (electric and boiler heated). The house has 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms, 1 bath and 3 showers.

There are some doubts in my mind about deciding on the make and size of the boiler. 'Opal Fruit' recomends at least a 30kw boiler for a 10 radiator system, I have 1 quote for a 26kw boiler, do I need to upgrade it? Also is there an alternative to chappee bora (4232.00 euros)! This is a floor mounted model 'ventouse', heating only. Having said that, the plumber says it will also heat the hot water tank??? this being a Ballon sanitaire 200l chappee pim bi isole inox, 1365.00 euros!

We are trying to be as future proof as possible, I have seen a 30kw oil boiler in bricodepot for 2190 euros GROUPE THERMIQUE FIOUL TWIN 100 ventouse. Is this false economy, should we stick with the chappee at twice the price. http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.bricodepot.fr/&ei=LrX-Sf_XG8K2jAer8cGvAw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbrico%2Bdepot%26hl%3Den I think this comes with alot of the stuff for installation that my quote has listed separately at extra cost.

Sorry, I've gone a bit!

 

 

 

 

[Gluestick]

Welcome to the forum!

Firstly, whatever system you finally decide on, the first step would be to calculate the Heat Loss of the various rooms. This is in fact quite simple, as there are various online and physical calculators for achieving the answer. What you must do, is to decided what average temperature you wish to maintain (in Winter) for each and every room: and then calculate the heat loss per hour: which then allows you to arrive at a number for heat input per hour per room.

Such calcs take into account physical construction and the insulating properties; for example, different types of wall lose heat energy at different rates.

Single glazed windows lose energy faster than double glazed equivalents: and so on.

Insulation is the key to current heating requirements which ever system you decide to finally employ. Are the walls cavity? A starting point.

You mention that the loft is insulated: floor or roof? Is the loft converted and part of the living accommodation?

Consider double-glazing all windows.

Overall, remember that central heating is simply a matter of throwing sufficient heat into a building, which allows expected heat loss and maintains each room at the desired comfortable temperature.

Whilst the floors may need re-tiling, retro-fitting underfloor wet systems is a major job in an existing property, since the floor has to be kangoed and then re-constituted; much to do prior to reaching the re-tiling point!

If possible with any wet system, elect for underfloor; since this provides much more effective heat distribution. The trouble with radiators is that they focus heat output in just one place; and to warm an enclosed space, rely on the natural thermo-syphon effect of air. As localised air is heated it rises, displacing colder air at ceiling level, which then falls to ground level. Thus the hottest place in any room heated by rads is the space just beneath the ceiling! Where it is least required; unless that is one Superglues oneself on the ceiling!

Next point: what condition is all the pipework in? Really? If the installation is 20 years old then the pipework is probably thoroughly furred and restricted: may well need replacement; unless the previous owner/s were scrupulous in ensuring anti-corrosion additive was regularly installed; as it degrades quite quickly.

Boiler: one can only compare boilers for price on a Like-for-Like basis. Brico Depot's offerings tend to be quite basic.

Chappee boilers are quite good in quality and performance: but not as good, for example, as Weisman; which are currently the Rolls Royce.

In any case you should opt for a Condensing Boiler owing to the efficiency.

BTW: boilers sold in France tend to be for CH and DHW (Domestic Hot Water) or just for CH.

That said, running a  Ballon for DHW on cheap rate electricity is far cheaper than heating DHW by oil: people might think, "But the boiler's on anyway!"

Indeed it is: but it will consume more oil to heat domestic hot water too.

You are in fact in 32, far enough South to probably heat using solar: remembering that whilst the capital cost might well be higher, with the ever-rising price of oil, this could well save you some serious money! With solar you can have a Bi-Source hot water tank: heating by both solar and electricity and even in Winter there is sufficient solar radiation to rase the temperature in the Ballon significantly during the day: and thus save electricity at night.

Every little helps!

When we first purchased our house in France, oil was less than one third of the price it reached last Winter!

If you elect solar, then you would undoubtedly requires ancilliary heating such as a wood burner in Winter: especially in the evenings.

Andrew (Poolguy) has posted on this thread and his posts list his URL: might well be worth asking Andrew for a quote. And details of HIS new heating installation by solar which is quite new.

And its performance.

 

[powerdesal]

At last, a question that just cries out for answers.

Obviously Gluestick has valid points (would I contradict him??????????) but..........30kw is a far too arbitrary figure. It is way too big IF you intend to insulate your property - as you really should.

If you did buy a 30kw boiler and, following Glueys advice it was a condensing type you would find it was not in fact operating in condensing mode and would not achieve the quoted or desired efficiency, ie wasting money.

It is of course quite true that doing the heat calculations for a house is a bit of a pain in the proverbial but they are easy maths, just very repetitive. The results can be quite startling. In my case, a reasonably large, 4 bedroom stone house in Normandy gave a CH requirement of less than 20kw (as I remember it was c.17.5kw but the data is not here to hand), this obviously needs to be inflated by an assumed DHW figure. Even so, nowhere near 30kw and I have certainly not less than 150 sqr m of area.

As has been mentioned, a solar input for DHW is well worth the extra, even if it only 'pre-heats' the water it off loads the requirement for addidtional oil fired heat input.

Finally, the basis of any CH system must be comprehensive insulation, the need cannot be stressed too highly. All heating systems mean losing heat to the atmosphere, the object is to minimise that heat loss thus minimising the heat input required thus minimising the running costs.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="powerdesal"]At last, a question that just cries out for answers.

Obviously Gluestick has valid points (would I contradict him??????????) [/quote]

It has been known.............................

[Www]

And why not; as Barry Humphries was apocyphrally credited to repeat..............

[:D]

 

 

[barneysfriends]

Well......thanks for all the replies. Have enjoyed seeing the debate develop. Our friend seems determined to fetch his cheap boiler from UK, so will enjoy watching that too.....have only just noticed my speeling error in the subject of my original post. You were all too polite to point it out!

[Gluestick]

We are far too kind to comment about the odd aberant speeling error, Barnysfriend!

[blink]

[BIG MAC]

I though he may be refering to the lady from S3x in the city she's a bit hot!

[nemltd]

Thanks for the information guys, a great forum.

It would be great to hear from 'Poolguy' about his new 'solar' system, cost and performance and how it works.

In the short term we have decided to install a wood burner for the lounge/diner/kitchen and use electric rads or similar for the bedrooms.

Dare I pose an electrical question? Here goes................We have asked for a quote for replacing switches and sockets and were surprised at 120.00 euros to replace a 'simple allumage'. I'm hoping this is not just to unsrew one old switch and screw in the new, the 'interrupteur' costs about 5.00 euros. The house was built in 1968, do you think there maybe more to it, new regs or the like? He has also quoted to renew the breakers and consumer unit and something to do with 'edf' (1 alimentation depuit le disjoncteur edf et commende jn).

Thanks again

 

[Poolguy]

 

nemltd

I've sent you an email about your question.

If you don't get it then perhaps you could PM me your contact details.

 

Andrew

 

[Bob Walsh]

However, £320 worth of oil is nowhere near the mark, unless they use

the heating very sparingly... perhaps a few years ago when oil was

10-15p/litre, but not nowadays. An average house requires about 15,000 kWh of energy per annum to heat,

and a further 5000 kWh for hot water. Using 28 second grade oil with

your boiler, which will be about 85% efficient, that could be reduced by perhaps 25% using new gasification boilers systems. Oh don't get me wrong I love being warm!.

________________

Gasification Boilers

[powerdesal]

Where does the figure of 15000 kWh come from and what is the definition of an average house?

In my simple terms, assuming a 'heating season' of 5 months, ie 3000kWh / month this equates to approx 100kWh / day or 4 kW per hour. Hence the figure indicates a heat input of 4 kW to maintain a standard indoor temperature of 20 degrees against a standard outside ambient of -1 degC. I find that difficult to accept given that my own house (ok, not UK average size) requires that in the sitting room alone, never mind the rest of the house.

 

In fact my (revised) calculations of heat loss from my house indicate approx 13kW per hour is needed (unless my maths are totally shot). I think I will re-visit the calculations.

 

In terms of wood gasification boilers, I am now tending towards a wood pellet boiler with a super-insulated heat store incorporating a solar input to pre-heat as much as possible. The reason for pellets is looking towards the future when age may make it more difficult to handle logs from the wood shed to the boiler room. Auto pellet feed from tanker filled bulk hopper to boiler hopper seems to be a desirable feature.

[Mr Wiggy]

I have a question to ask, and it is this.

I have in the Cave, an “Atalya” Central Heating Boiler, which I imagine is possibly around 10 years old and is now proving to be very uneconomical, on the fuel supply side, despite having it serviced last year.

So I have been contemplating changing the burner assembly as the boiler itself seems to be working perfectly. To change the burner assembly, the cost will be in the region of 400€ - 600€, + fitting.

To me, this would be by far more sensible to change this single item rather than the whole unit, to do this is a false economy when everything else works OK.

Your input would be very much appreciated on this aspect.