Gr8 plumber and kitchen fabricator, shame about the electrician!!

[Chezstevens]

We live in Southern 79. We have just had a beautiful kitchen and utility room fitted - the guy certainly knows his wood. The plumbing was well laid out and a work of art, though mostly hidden by the kitchen - huge thanks to our plumber.

Then we come to the electrician (based near Lezay). We had a thorough discussion over the project, where switches were to be etc. Devis came which, although on the high side of our estimate, we duly signed 'cos the guy seemed to know his stuff. He then started work, his preparation for cabling was done freehand. Circular saw cuts were made without the benefit of a chalk or pencil line. We now have an exposed portion of stone wall that is mutilated. We also agreed to disagree over position of switches etc that had been painstakingly discussed at original site meeting. Needless to say, after a day and a half, I briefed the individual on his shortcomings, he asked me if "I wanted him to finish the job or what", the answer was "No, not if this is the standard of your work" and he left the site in a cloud of profanity, witnessed by others, (with our large deposit) having worked for 1.5 days. If you don't want an old building spoilt by a thoughtless electrician, then you may wish to avoid this guy.  He is probably very good in a modern house where you can easily hide his work. If you would like to see photos of his work please PM me.

[Chancer]

A native or immigrant?

[Chezstevens]

Chancer,

UK origin. Somebody who has communicated by PM has suggested his father used to do fosse-septiques in the area.

Vern

[AnOther]

A word of caution.

I'm not sure you can summarily dismiss an artisan just like that !

[Chezstevens]

Another,

Ordinarily you are correct; however a Devis written in English has no standing in French law. Additionally the offending electrician has sent us a letter agreeing to the dismissal. Obviously we will not see the substantial deposit but need to warn others of this individuals work.

Vern

[AnOther]

[quote user="Chezstevens"]a Devis written in English has no standing in French law.[/quote]Is that really true ?

[pachapapa]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Chezstevens"]a Devis written in English has no standing in French law.[/quote]Is that really true ?

[/quote]

But one spoken in Platt-Deutsch would be.[:D]

[Chezstevens]

AI Poitou-Ch is really no fun at all. You get a good thread going, without naming the individual, and they pull it to protect, I guess, revenue stream. Certainly produced a good number of PMs including others that have had similar situation with same guy

[powerdesal]

As far as I can see the thread is still here, who has pulled what ?

[Chezstevens]

Link to photobucket :

http://photobucket.com/electricalstevens

[Chezstevens]

[quote user="powerdesal"]As far as I can see the thread is still here, who has pulled what ?[/quote]

The post you can see is the one I created to compliment the plumber and cabinetmaker.

[Quillan]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Chezstevens"]a Devis written in English has no standing in French law.[/quote]Is that really true ?

[/quote]

If the electrician is French qualified and his business is registered in France (i.e. has a SIRET number and possibly TVA registered) then yes French law applies. If he doesn't then he is working illegally and I would suggest to him that he gives the facture from the supplier for the cable and fittings used so far for which I would pay for out of the deposit and ask for the balance back. I mean I should think tax man etc would be most interested to hear about him. [;-)]

[Chezstevens]

Yes, he is a Brit registered in France. It is a shame 'cos we have 2 cracking stonemasons, a plumber and cabinet maker. Main thing is to make sure that others are not caught out by such isolated individuals (too late for us but artisans, after commenting on his butchery, warned us off using him cos he has a reputation).

[Quillan]

Did you check his SIRET number on any of the sites below, people have been know to give out dodgy numbers. What about his insurance?

Lesechos.fr

Infogreffe.fr

Societe.com

Manageo.fr

I had a look at your photo's but it's a bit difficult without looking at the house and knowing what your going to be doing. For instance they do put cables in concrete floors here, my house has them and it was built in the 1980's. I assumed that you would tile the kitchen floor, was that your intention, perhaps not as the kitchen units are already installed or are they the old ones in the photo's? There is of course the, what I presume to be, light switches with the chasing down through all that lovely stone work. On the other hand he should have told you that to have a light switch you need to run the cable down the wall and what that would involve. Old stone houses are a pain to rewire and mainly you follow the existing routes just replacing the old wire with new. I think in some ways he knew what he was doing, take a large deposit, cut a few run through the stonework knowing you would be horrified and throw him off the job because it really is a lot of work and many 'sparks' wont touch it.

[Chezstevens]

Quillan,

Your last observation sums it up, annoying because we (wife, electrician and I) discussed exactly this. He agreed to chasing around stones otherwise we wouldn't have used him or discussed more sympathetic ways (perhaps boxing in gaine using the skills of our cabinetmaker). I was away and what does he do, get the circular saw out :( then told me the normes insisted on straight runs (his work was not straight!). An odious individual we are well rid of ... other artisans haveconfirmed this ... just a shame we learnt too late!

[Chancer]

Please dont take this the wrong way, I am not defending or making excuses for your electrician but I feel this needs to be said.

Having cut loads of chases with a petrol disc cutter, (by the way a circular saw is used to cut wood) I can tell you that its virtually impossible to follow a staright line marked out when cutting different hardness materials, even the floor would be difficult but the vertical runs you really struggle with the weight (20kg or so) and reactions of the cutter whilst trying to support the weight over a long period, even Arnie S would struggle, and then there is the almost total lack of visibility from the dust which quickly covers any guide marks, even someone as fastidios as I no longer bother to trace them if I can see the destination.

And to be honest even if the channels were dead straight would you be happy with a line of concrete running across your tiled floor or up the beautifull stone wall? If you had told me to cut straight chases I would have assumed that you were going to be retiling the floor and doing something else with the walls.

If you had agreed with him that the chase should follow the joints of the stone, and a good example is at the top above the window (where in my mind thats exactly what you should have sought) and he had done what he had done straight or crooked I would have understood your dismay, I can sympathise that you are sad to have destroyed a beautifull feature, it makes me sad to look at them, but to my mind its not through his lack of straigtness, its having decided to go straight in the first place.

I can confirm that any French electrician around here would have done far worse than he did, they would probably have agreed to run the gaine in the joints (which is very hard with even the smallest gaine), said yes to whatever you wanted and then just cut from A to B however they wanted, unstraight, diagonal or whatever and told you that it was the normes.

I would be really interested to see how another electrician is going to do better in a similar area except of course by running the gaine in the joints, I have to say that most I have seen have used unprotected UK T+E cable run sideways to keep to a tight radius, the others even some chateaus and museums have had ugly chases often far worse than yours.

I am really sympathetic, if you find a way to do the job better please share it with us, how are you planning to recover what has already been butchered?

My apologies, I had not read properly your last posting, I see that he had agreed to your request to chase out between the stones, you have to hand it to him he is very well integrated [:'(]

[BIG MAC]

Having looked at the photos..I would have suggested using powder coated containmen stood off the masonry rather than that mess.  The chase by the door is a joke when the chippie should have been able to  create room behind the architrave. The chase in the floor...WTF???...do the not have chamber joists in France?...

Slap dash and cokk-eyed...why on earth once he had destroyed one part did you not ...pull the plug?

Now off to his insurers for recompense I should imagine...

[Chezstevens]

Chancer,

Thank you for your thoughts. I have renovated 3 200yr old houses. 2 in Malmesbury, Wilts and one here. At all three properties I have managed to insert gaine (with some chopping of stone) within the joints. My point is, and I hope you appreciate this, having discussed this matter at the initial meeting then I should expect what was agreed - indeed what I have acheived myself. If the individual had suggested the mutilation of the stone, then I would have reconsidered employing him.

[Chezstevens]

Big Mac,

Trust me, I would have pulled the plug but I did not gethome till the following day. My wife, who suffers from Asthma, retired to the garden once the dust increased.

Your thoughts are mine, our brief to him before the work was directed - chase around the stone - if he had suggested otherwise we would not have signed!

Thankfully we are insured for legal work so will look for recompense .... we know some outstanding stone masons that will restore to original state.

The main thing is he is well known, we have been inundated with peoples problems with this man - most put off by his biligerence.

[Chancer]

I understand exactly where you are coming from Chezstevens, its even worse when having taken all the precautions, communicated well, got agreement etc you have that nagging suspicion that it is going to come to nothing, its sickening when you find it has.

There were in fact a lot of electricians like that that I rubbed shoulders with in the UK, and as you say their reputation precedes them, I used to install burglar alarms, there was always time pressure, if I finished a basic job in a day I made a reasonable living, if they took a second day it was not even survival, I prided myself on always hiding all cables yet none of the competition even tried, I got more and more work because of it but I was becoming my worse enemy in terms of time on the job; my solution was to specialise on the larger jobs for the wealthier clients who were prepared to pay a premium for the best job, it was the best business decision I ever made and from that day forward I never ever counted my time, something that I continue to do now with my own renovation.

Alarm cables are one thing but electrical cables in gaine demands a lot more perseverance and volonté (losing my english) to do the best possible job, I dont know of any electricians at all in my part of France who have even the slightest notion of the word that escapes me, sadly it is true of all the tradesman, they do the job they want to do, on their terms, when it suits them, the customer is just the muppet who pays for it, I have known people, French who have attempted to explain what they want and impressed that they are willing to pay for it, they tell me that the guys treat it as an insult.

Working on next to no money I am doing all the trades myself on my project, most of them are new to me but I am a competent guy and always do the best job I can regardless of how much time it takes me, its a pleasure and any other way would become work. I hear these stories because people are always approaching me and asking me if I will work for them, they tell me that as an English charpente/couvreur/zinguist/electricien/plombier/plaquist/macon/carreleur/terrassier etc etc I do far better work than the French and they are always taken aback when I tell them that I am just a bricoleur.

I went to a journée portes ouverte at a centre de formation d'apprentissage for all the building trades, just as in the UK the work showcased and the apprentices working on the day were the pick of the bunch, I have to say that with very few exceptions I was very shocked at the low quality of their work, if that is all that is demanded of them during their training they are not going to get any better on the job. The exceptions were the ebenistes and the tailleurs de pierre, most of which were in fact girls, en bref the noble trades. There was also a catering college there, that was completely different, all the students were as motivated as the few exceptional ones in the BTS and they were trained and working to the highest standards. Says it all really [:(]

 

[Chezstevens]

Chancer,

Spot on, I get the distinct impression that some tradesman are outraged if the client (or wallet) expects what was agreed! As an ex-aircraft apprentice (70's), I understand the satisfaction in getting something right and on time. I am investigating "a home installation course" as part of my resettlement to ensure further electrical work is of a satisfactory standard.

Good luck on your project, you must be chuffed to achieve all these disciplines :)

Vern

[Chezstevens]

For folks that live in 79 and surrounding areas, if you are thinking of employing a electrician then PM me for details of one to avoid.

[Chezstevens]

This dispute over electrical work has NOTHING to do with Bob Stevens, an electrician I have had no dealings with.

[Chezstevens]

Photos now at www.photobucket.com/shoddyelectricalwork

[Chezstevens]

Waiting for a devis from a professional electrician, rather than red van man :), and have also booked myself into a "Essential Electrics" and "Home Installation" course.  Work has paid for both as part of my resettlement so "Happy days".  Everybody who has seen the damage done by the supposed artisan have been dismayed by his lack of professionalism .... no chalk line etc.  Those that have viewed the photobucket folder, thank you for your kind comments and support.