Convert Barn or Build from Scratch

[oatesdaniel]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum so please go easy on me! We have found a lovely fishing business in Charente that we are interested in purchasing. Very good business model as it stands, but we want to maximise the potential of the property as currently the owner only has room for 6 fishermen to stay, and with 10 acres worth of carp lake on the property, we feel that we could potentially open up to more clients if we had more accomodation. Currently there is 1 x 170m2 3 bed house, 1 x 140m2 3 bed bungalow, and a 725m2 barn. The barn looks in decent structural condition, roof looks ok, walls look ok, and ideally we would like to convert this into 3x 3 bed properties, with a little bit left over for storage of lawnmowers, tools, cars, etc. However, the estate agent has told us that it would be just as cheap to build new houses and build them to exactly what design we want without the restrictions placed upon us by the current barn walls, etc etc. Does anybody know if this is true? We do hear all the horror stories that come with renovating old properties, but surely its still less expensive to do this rather than lay new foundations etc etc? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Dan

[Quillan]

Hi and welcome to the forum, I hope you find it of interest. There are many people here who have loads of experience from wiring a power socket up to a full on renovation.

I had a search around the forum and found this (click on the link below)

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/3/1186856/ShowPost.aspx#1186856

Seems somebody had a similar idea. You can use the PM button or Email button if you want to ask them a question in private if, like in this case the thread is very old. Even if they no longer post they should get the PM or Email.

I would suggest that you try and find other fishing lakes (not to close as to make them think your stealing their business) and find out how they are doing in the current economic climate before spending money.

There is an old saying about moving to France, or any other country for that matter, which is research, research and then research again, you can never do too much of it. Many a dream has been shattered by something very small that was overlooked. That's not intended to put you off at all but just be careful and make sure everything is dead right before committing. Look in to healthcare, tax and social payments, they are all high in France. Find out from the local mayors office if they will in principal allow you to renovate and or build anything on the land. There may be restrictions you don't know about. Visit the DDE who are the final people to say yes or no to discover how the 'land ,lies' metaphorically before committing (visit the mayors office first as they will have a plan with the plot number on it which will help if you visit the DDE).

As to the main question you could think about using wooden chalet type houses which can be easier to get planning for if they are a certain size (quite small for two people max). They might look quite appealing dotted around the lakeside. Perhaps you could then use the barn, or part of it, to sell or rent fishing equipment and food for your guests etc.

Anyway I wish you the best of luck and hope it all works out splendidly for your. Done right you will really enjoy your life here in France.

[dave21478]

New build - without question. I am sick of dealing with crumbling walls, crusty wood, leaky roofs, damp, wonky floors, bad drainage, shonky electrics and all the other problems you find. Remember that a barn will unlikely have been designed to be damp-proof or have decent drainage. To say nothing of finding the room you are rennovating is 18 inches too narrow for what you would like to do. Its too much of a compromise to rennovate an existing structure into something completely different, whereas a new build is done to your exact specifications....plumbing, wiring etc is all a breeze as it goes in at the correct stage of the build instead of trying to stuff it into a structure, trying to hide pipes and wires and find ways through meter-thick stone walls.

Sure, a new build doesnt have the charm of an old building - assuming your barn HAS charm in the first place, but some careful work and planning with the finish can leave you with a very pleasing build that fits in nicely with the surroundings.

Cost-wise its hard to say as it depends massively on the state of your barn. You say the roof looks good, but is that "looks ok from here" standing at ground level or have you been up into the beams checking carefully for rot or slipping? There is a vast amount of things to consider and only a decent, appraisal of your barn by someone experienced will give you an inlking as to potential expenses.

[Anton Redman]

I have renovated an end of longiere into a two bath roomed

two bed home during my holidays.  Done a

fair bit of work on splitting a barn into three gites. Completely renovated a

house including creating a kitchen dining room in the lean to barn. Renovated

an fin de ciecle/Edwardian three storey seaside house. Everything I know says a

new build quality for quality and space for space is cheaper.

New build French doors. Stop building the wall and use

reinforcing rods in the brique creuse both sides. Reach right height. Install

or cast a lintel in situe using a frame to check doors go in.

Barn conversion French doors. Put support through above

window jack up till under tension. Install lintel half way through and allow to

cement to cure. Repeat other side. Dig out of say 2.5 tonnes of rock and

rubble. Cast floor allow to cure. Fit doors and probably replace 0.5 tinnes of

rock. Dispose of remaining rock.

Mark Bricknell 'The House Builders Bible' is a good UK source book for UK cost estimates and 'Construire ou Renovee Sa Maison' remains my favourite for French building. It is crammed with illustrations and useful tables

[Val_2]

My husband always advocated it was cheaper to build from scratch here in France rather than renovate as he was an artisan here for 18years doing mostly renovation works.The cost of converting an existing building is huge because you will literally have to take it back to scratch anyway to put in works that were not included in the first place and this has to be done to be covered forthe normes in french construction. HOWEVER for a new build, dependent upon location, the local maire and the DDE you may be very restricted and perhaps even not allowed to do any works, you need to sound out the maire first before putting in hours of plans,photos,paperwork etc so its not a waste of time. Building work is very restricted in France and location can be a real problem or historical monuments such as wayside crosses,churches and other treasures.One renovation we did just on a barn into habitation next to the owner's own house for a future holiday let cost over €100,000 when finished and they only paid €120,000 for the whole property so you must weigh up the costs very carefully indeed as this money will never be recouped.

[idun]

We went for a new build in France, I thought it would be an easier option. Watch out, even french friends have been stung by cowboy builders, so go and see the work they have already done and make sure that your contract includes starting and proper finishing dates.

Also make sure that you have thought of everything, ie guttering and drain pipes, septic tank, stairs down into a possible sous sol. Sometimes very little is included other than just the basics:-  roof on, walls up, floor in and interior walls done, and a toilet, sink, bath and kitchen sink, when I say the basics I mean it and bare plasterboard walls. All the other things can be very costly to finish.

[Théière]

Build from scratch, ICF's for energy and efficiency let alone speed of the build and face them with the stone from the dismantled old barn.

Of course it will take a few years before the french work out what an ICF is cos they probably spell it BFI [:D]

[andyh4]

New Build.

We were given the following ball aprk figures when we bought ozur renovation project

Cost of renovation is between 1000€ and 1500€ per metre ² - so think around 1m€ for your 750m² barn.  Depending on level of finish of course.

 

Our expereince is that the estimate is pretty much spot on.

 

[andyh4]

PS:  Do not assume the barn has foundations.

[Chancer]

If you are doing all the work yourself then there is still probably a substantial saving to be made by working with what you have but only if you dont account for your labour. I am renovating/converting and on one hand can say that my rental income could give me a possible 30% return on investment but if I count the cost of what probably will be 10 years of labour or worse still the opportunity cost, either to have carried on with my old business or done something else then its a very poor investment. Thankfully I consider my time to be worth zero and profit from a new stress free life for the moment at least.

Another problem with renovation if you are not doing it yourself is that around here at least most artisans will not even quote for it, they prefer an easy life without any unknowns, complications or hidden problems, those that do tackle it charge an arm and a leg and you will be very lucky to find one company to take responsibility for the whole project rather a couple of dozen artisans who wont even take responsibility for their own work let alone co-ordinate and communicate with the others, you will have to do that and your French had better be really good.

As soon as you have got a bad name with one artisan for being awkward which unless you have superb language, negotiatiing and people skills you will find that all the others will slam the door proverbially in your face.

Against that as has been mentioned a new build needs an awfull amount of work doing to it to bring it to the standard that a new dwelling in the UK would have, kitchen, painting of all walls and you will probably have to redo all of the plasterboard jointing, at the very least sand them all (not the plaquiste or the bandistes job). There will not even be a path leading to your front door, a renovation of an existing dwelling may have many of these elements already in place but a barn unlikely.

P.S. My property didnt and still doesnt have foundations.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="andyh4"]PS:  Do not assume the barn has foundations.[/quote]

Indeed - and it might not be the problem you think, but a different one.

Our barn had no foundations: as it turned out, it was simply built on the bedrock. But the ground sloped from one end of the barn to the other, and the job of digging out earth from the ground floor (where the previous owner's cows had lived many, many happy lives, to judge by the depth of fossilised manure at one end) was very easy at the downhill end, and at the uphill end it came down to excavating rock. The result was that the last couple of rooms on the ground floor are a step or two up from the others. A mini-digger (all that would fit underneath the beams) just wasn't up to removing a 25cm thickness of rock.

I am sure it would have been cheaper to demolish and start from scratch. Indeed, it might even have been cheaper in the long run to have demolished and built an exact replica of the original barn, but with cavity walls, and sensible runs for the plumbing, and a damp-proof course.

That's not to say I am unhappy with the actual result. It's just that I might have ended up with a smaller mortgage.

[Bill]

hello

 

my short experience has been everything has cost me about double my estimate on our renovation.

 

how about a log cabin, that might work for you.. they can be quite cheap..

 

I had a quick look and found this..  for 17000 euro   I am sure there are better deals..

 

http://www.rpmloghomes.com/our-best-loghouses/rpm-tre

 

No idea about the planning implications..

 

rgds

Bill

[BIG MAC]

You could put in pads inside the barn then an RC  ring beam and a block and beam deck (very little digging and easy to damp-proof) Make good inside walls and line with cellotex. then simply build your units inside as single skin celcon block modules. Cheap as chips and modern on the inside?

Could be done in studwork but vermin can be a problem with that

 

[oatesdaniel]

[quote user="Bill"]

hello

 

my short experience has been everything has cost me about double my estimate on our renovation.

 

how about a log cabin, that might work for you.. they can be quite cheap..

 

I had a quick look and found this..  for 17000 euro   I am sure there are better deals..

 

http://www.rpmloghomes.com/our-best-loghouses/rpm-tre

 

No idea about the planning implications..

 

rgds

Bill

[/quote]

 

Love the log cabin idea actually. We need them to be around 140m2 each, probably take 2 of them. But from what I understand, dont they cost around double the initial price once you add in everything from delivery to installation???

[Quillan]

We have seriously looked at these in the past. Spain has loads of companies supplying these and many have an area with show homes. We saw a 5 bedroom house with two bathrooms etc for 120,000 Euros including VAT, it was very nice. Problem with that size is just too much wood inside.

Everything is cut to size and numbered, you get a drawing showing you how to assemble it. A big house obviously needs people to install it it, height, crane etc but the smaller ones can be done with a couple of guys over a week easy. I have seen with my own eyes a 20m2 one go up in two days.

In Spain they are classed as a temporary homes/sheds because of course they can be dismantled but I have no idea about France.

It is very clever how they make them. You sit with the guy at a computer and design your house, the program also runs the machine that cuts and marks the wood and packages for shipping it in the way it will be constructed. So the last pack on the lorry will be the roof so as it is unloaded (unless you have a right idiot loading and unloading) the first pack you need is on the top.

Long threaded rods are cemented in to the base which can be joined and extended upright and the wood has holes in it so when you build the unit you tighten up the thing by running washers and nuts down to make the joints snug. Personally I would get them to lay the base and fit the rods, any alignment problems are then down t them.

When I retire I intend to built my retirement home with this method except I will line some of the inside to increase the insulation even though wood is an excellent insulator. The house we visited we saw in August and it was still very cool inside and this was near Benidorm. I suspect they will also stay warm in the winter.

[idun]

And sometimes once somewhere is demolished, planning permission can be difficult to obtain for a new build. 

[Jonzjob]

I was told by a very good builder who had done his apprenticeship on Gloucester Cathedrial that a stone barn will always be a barn and not a good house. It wasn't designed to be a house. His words not mine. But I tend to agree.

Wooden framed houses are available. This is an English firm by the looks of it. I have no idea what they are like?

http://www.frenchtimberframe.co.uk/

Could well be worth a good look at the various sizes?

Welcome to the forum by the way and I hope that you make a sucess of your venture..

[Sprogster]

As a general rule of thumb, new build is always much cheaper than renovation. Also when you come to resell, new build appeals far more to French buyers, who cannot understand the Brit attraction to older property!

[Quillan]

As wonderful all this advice is and has given the OP food for thought I still think he firsts needs to find out if he can a) Renovate the Barn. b)Knock it down and build on the footprint. c) Build anything on the land at all. Surely this should be the first step before making any offer etc.

[jackie-p]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]I was told by a very good builder who had done his apprenticeship on Gloucester Cathedrial that a stone barn will always be a barn and not a good house. It wasn't designed to be a house. His words not mine. But I tend to agree.

[/quote]

well mine is a barn conversion ,all we started with is three stone walls ,no electrics/roof/water nothing ,but I never once considered knocking it down and building a new build...

Building it ourselves had great self satisfaction...The cost of renovation was well under 20,000 euro and we have new everything roof/windows/electric/plumbing etc...

new houses does not have the wow appeal imo...

[oatesdaniel]

[quote user="Quillan"]

As wonderful all this advice is and has given the OP food for thought I still think he firsts needs to find out if he can a) Renovate the Barn. b)Knock it down and build on the footprint. c) Build anything on the land at all. Surely this should be the first step before making any offer etc.

[/quote]

We wouldnt knock the barn down to build on the footprint. There is over 60 hectares of land. Now I know not all of it is building land but I know that some of it is, probably enough to put 2 lovely log houses on it. Don't worry, I'm a business man and I will do all my due diligence, but thank you for the advice

[Théière]

[quote user="jackie-p"][quote user="Jonzjob"]I was told by a very good builder who had done his apprenticeship on Gloucester Cathedrial that a stone barn will always be a barn and not a good house. It wasn't designed to be a house. His words not mine. But I tend to agree.

[/quote]

well mine is a barn conversion ,all we started with is three stone walls ,no electrics/roof/water nothing ,but I never once considered knocking it down and building a new build...

Building it ourselves had great self satisfaction...The cost of renovation was well under 20,000 euro and we have new everything roof/windows/electric/plumbing etc...

new houses does not have the wow appeal imo...

[/quote]

I am guessing your barn isn't 725m2

[Jonzjob]

The house/cottage we moved from to come here was built in 1735, possibly earlier. It was Cotswold stone and just outside Stroud along Butterow Lane and I lived in it for 23 years. My workshop in it, literally in it, was about 20 foot square and 11 foot high. At one time it had either been a stable or a forge for the manor farm next door. It started out as 2 farm workers cottages with another 2 built onto the side at a later date. The 4 were then knocked into 2, of which ours was the elder. 3 foot plus thick cotswold stone walls that didn't get thinner at the top. I found that out when I fitted the siren for the alarm.

There were no foundations for any of the 4 original and no modifications when they were updated. They knew how to build. The only window in my workshop had a sill that I couldn't reach unless I was a couple of rungs up a ladder and that was road/lane level at the front of the house. Floor level of the workshop led straight through the dining room to the back door and into the garden. We were 1/2 way up a 600 foot valley. It was built as a living accomadation and was very comfortable and healthy with the 31 steps on that staircase, top to bottom.

From this, I learned a few things about stone 'houses' and along the lane I saw and learned about a lot of stone 'barns' too. Stone houses are designed to live in, stone barnes are designed to store things in, be they hay, straw or animals.

[jackie-p]

I have put my windows and doors where I want them ,so perfect and the floors as well ,I look round at our village and most people houses they have to bend down to look throught the upstairs windows...Same as the chimney , I built right in the middle of the house...Think stone walls ideal for winter and summer ..

Starting from scratch has huge advantages...

725 is a lot ,the knock that down and take away would be very expensive..

[Val_2]

To the OP, because you have a lot of land do not assume for a moment you can build on any of it nor what you want to build, it is very strictly controlled these days and many communes will no longer allow new builds outside of the POS limit due to the immense cost of installing utilities,drainage and access(must be more than 2m width for permission to build so that emergency vehicles can easily enter).Agricultural land,coastal land and woodland are heavily protected against development and as I mentioned earlier, you really need to discuss your plans firstly at the mairie who will simply tell you if it is possible or not before you start expensive and lengthy enquires and applications(those are free but the photos,printing etc are not).

Being on council I get to see a lot of applications to build on land which upto even five years ago would have been allowed with no problems but no longer and many folks who bought land and banked it for retirement builds have been left with parcels of land that can no longer be developed even though they may be close to other dwellings.

Also the type of  new build you wish to construct may not be allowed either, all the materials have to be approved as well as the design.