letrangere

Having once been part of the black economy (English lessons on the side) and known so many French doing the same, I've often wondered why such a strong moral tone is often taken on the Forum towards those even hinting at doing a little bit of travail noir.  Especially as most are so innocent they wouldn't even realise it was technically illegal, not that that's any excuse but, all the same.  When in Rome?  M

we will NEVER retire until our bodies are too decrepit to do what we want to do, like a lot of things, use it or lose it. You don't have to be in perfect health to use this strategy. Remember 80 is the new 50 This is very weird for I had precisely this conversation with my other half earlier this evening.  He criticises his friends who "retired" at 50 (which I've been nagging him to do for 3 years now) saying that they could easily live another 40 years so will have, in effect, spent half their adult life contributing nothing.  M 

But if you're living permanently in France surely wanting to enjoy a food item from England is no different to wanting something French when living in the UK?  And no one ever criticises anyone for that.  And isn't it normal to want to enjoy other cuisines - be it Italian, Indian, Thai, etc. - when living in both?  M

It suggests that people are.....looking for a country where a decent, upright, honest leader is directing the country in a positive and pleasing way.   So why are they coming to France, with CHIRAC in charge??????   That doesn't make sense! It probably is ignorance but I still think Brits automatically expect all foreign johnny politicians (especially presidents) to be evil, corrupt, perverted and thoroughly untrustworthy individuals. People move to France because housing is cheaper and they can change from being a small English fish in a big English pond to being a big English fish in a small French pond. Beautifully put, SB. By the way, I never normally disagree with Coco but I had the misfortune to read something in the Guarniad by the appalling Polly Toynbee who was more critical of Tony Blair's administration than any right wing columnist.  Didn't the paper even toy with throwing its weight behind the Lib Dems at the election?  M

Deby/Jo, what an interesting dialogue, fully agree with all you both say.  I cannot fathom how so many Brits believe everything is rosy in state of France when it so clearly isn't.  Ignorance is bliss, I guess, but how can you ignore unemployment figures such as the 17% in Deby's part of the country?  Especially when you consider that the figure in the same area for the under 25s is possibly an awful lot more. And another good piece in the Guardian.  I often read the better quality US papers (excellent writing in the NY and LA Times) and they've been warning of this for sometime with the implication being that certain economies of the Third World are soon likely to overtake those of the Old.  Personally, I think France is already being sidelined.  In fact look back a few years, weren't the rules bended a little to allow her to join the Eurozone as technically even then she didn't qualify on the grounds of her economy?  I can't see how the situation can be salvaged without imposing conditions that would surely result in another revolution. M

Didn't want to hijack the EU constitution thread but the subject of being able to vote came up and started me thinking.  You live there permanently, you pay tax, so why not exercise your right to vote?  OK, for the major events you need to be a French national, so why not apply for a passport if you're eligible?  After all, you can still keep your British one (oh for the days when they were hard covered and blue), so it's the best of both worlds really, don't you think?  M

Coco, personally to be honest, I think it pretty much correct to not let us vote, for many immigrants we are in transit and so is that fair that we are given a vote in a country that we may well leave tomorrow ? I know several Brits who after living and working in the States for the requisite number of years have applied for passports.  On the first occasion, my knee jerk reaction was a powerful WHY, what's wrong with a British one?  Then they explained that they paid US taxes so they wanted to be able to vote, it was as simple as that, hence need of passport.  Re EU Constitution: My mind's made up as to how I'd vote if I could but then I think like the poster, "what is it all about exactly"?  I suspect many are shamefully ignorant of what precisely they'll be voting oui ou non for on Sunday. Re Turkey:  You don't think this is a separate issue, or at least it should be?  Incidentally, it's not just supposedly Christian Europeans who question Turkey joining, you should hear what many Muslim Arabs have to say on the subject.  They rant that if Turkey can be classed as Europe, why stop there?  Surely Lebanon has as strong, if not stronger, case for inclusion and possibly Syria too (quelle horreur)?  But I digress... M

Those that give you a glass of cold water when you order an ice-cream or a sharp dark expresso coffee. When I was a child I always thought it was very silly to be given a glass of water with an ice cream on mainland Europe.  But now as grown up I can't help noticing that this very sensible habit is slowly dying out, which is a great shame because you do feel thirsty after an ice cream or a strong coffee.  You know what I love and you can only get it in France?  A bog standard any old brasserie beautifully dressed green salad and a plate of frites.  It doesn't even matter if it isn't fancy salad, invariably it isn't.  It's that sharp, mustardy dressing that accompanies it and good chips. M

I was tempted to submit my own novel to her, but do not think that it is good enough! You know there are people who will read your work for a smallish fee (around £200/£300) and give you professional advice?  We are living in the Charente and I think that she lives not far from us in Confolens and although not wishing to impinge on her privacy, would really like to meet her personally. Isn't this a dilemma.  Admirers knocking on the front door and having picnics on the lawn is supposedly what drove Peter Mayle to move after the initial success of a Year in Provence.  Even worse, Under a Tuscan Sun author Frances Mayes's home in Cortona is actually included in formal tours for American groups visiting the region.  Such is the price of fame, I guess. M

Did Patricia write a second book and what is the title?  Tell us please about your visit in due course to her vineyard and the sampling? Monika, I'm responsible for the posting on her wines in the Food & Drink section.  Having come across so many references to them in recent months by international wine critics in all sorts of publications I was rather curious.  Forum member Ian Hoare knows them well and makes some very interesting comments.  Someone else mentions that when they were last at her place she was in the middle of writing a sequel.  Sounds as though she's got an interesting set up there with a couple of gites too.  M

There does seem a massive resistance by French employers to take on new staff even when they cannot adequately meet their requirements with existing staffing levels. I am told this is due to the employment laws and it must be contributing to the level of unemployment and slow economic growth. You're right.  And it's a vicious circle for as it is so expensive for companies to take on staff in France, unemployment is only going to increase.  It's not something that gets much airtime on the Forum but I read recently that France has had its worst decade of economic growth since WWII.  And unemployment is a major issue that seems to touch people irrespective of their qualifications or social class.  Yet still Brits arrive ever hopeful of finding work.  M

 Yup, France worries about its brain drain too, as youngsters leave to cross the Channel and the Atlantic for better job opportunities. And according to INSEE, lots of them don't come back to France.  Unlike the high number of Brits who hotfoot it back to Britain when they se rendent comte of the limitations of the French system. There was a very interesting article based on an INSEE report only recently saying precisely this, perhaps you read it, SB?  And you see it too amongst the French expatriate community abroad.   Perhaps it's just me but looking around the French and Belgian people I know, a huge percentage of them were born abroad (Algeria (several), Cote d'Ivoire, Congo), so it isn't something new. M

Cricket is on the long wave  Bliss.  TMS one of the very few things that really makes me homesick.  M

Hi Hubber, sounds a good idea to bring everything possible to support your tenancy application (which is what it is in effect).  Re relocation agent, we used one initially but nothing came of it.  And I know the American couple used one throughout their search (neither had a word of French) and it didn't improve their chances much either.  I'd be tempted to say, don't waste your money.  Find a friendly immobilier, get him/her on your side, and just go for it.  It's an idea perhaps to dress up when you go to a viewing for I clearly remember a couple of places in the 16th & 17th that were more like fashion parades than an open house show.  I'd be fine now but being newly arrived in the city I found all that understated glamour and French female aloofness very intimidating.  Oh, something else we found and that was that Parisien landlords assume their tenants are going to arrive with everything including, on one occasion, a kitchen sink.  I don't know what your previous experience was like but out of perhaps 20+ places I viewed, only a handful had even a basic kitchen. Good luck and keep us posted as to how it goes. Margaret

Hi Hubber, Having recently been looking to buy, can confirm that both buying and renting sector is buoyant at present.  There are plenty of places on the market though, I'd say even more to rent than when we last lived in Paris. You asked whether Parisiens like renting to foreigners?  In our experience the simple answer is no.  There are exceptions obviously but listen to this.  One immobilier openly told me not to bring my swarthy looking husband out on viewing appointments as people in the best areas did not rent to pieds noirs.  She actually said that in so many words.  He's Welsh incidentally.  So on my own, I must have viewed 2 dozen places, each time via the "cattle market" system, ie you turn up at an appointed time with a couple of dozen other people (all French) and the landlord picks his tenant.  It's humiliating and frustrating in equal doses.  We were so lucky in the end, we found a landlord who was more foreign than us (Iranian exile)! However, it took an American colleague of my husband's four months to find a landlord willing to rent them a flat.  To give you some indication of their budget, they "lived" at the Intercon whilst house hunting.   This was long before Iraq War but no one wanted to rent to Americans, even rich ones. Bonne chance! M

One prof says about the unemployment system that "The longer you pay people for doing nothing, the longer they will do just that" Goodness, even the Guarniad recognises this now?  Life in Britain certainly has changed since I left.  You can read other articles by economists saying that Uk growth is only based on consumer spending,which is down to house prices, and that because nobody makes anything there's going to be trouble. I'm not an economist but I've long held this view.  Isn't it all to do with consumer confidence and people in the UK "feeling" well off because of the value of their homes?  When they start to "feel" less comfortably off, they'll stop spending, as we're already starting to see. M  

I wish I'd known that type writer keyboards were different in France.  Desperate to do anything to get me out of the house and using French, I fell back on my reliable, speedy typing skills.  Travel agency was terribly impressed, gave me a job immediately, albeit a very mundane one.  Naturally, I had egg on my face that first Monday morning.  I still cringe when I think about it...   M

It's at the opposite end of town from le Tour but one of the nicest and often most overlooked corners of Paris (at least by British tourists), Ile St Louis, immediately behind Notre Dame.  There are two gems of hotels within yards of each other, on the main street, rue St Louis.  One is Hotel des Deux Iles (tel: 01 43 26 13 35) the other, and IMHO the nicer, Hotel du Jeu de Paume (tel: 01 43 26 14 18).  Both are crammed full of character, though rooms are miniscule.  Fab non-touristy places to eat too on same street. Vache d'Or, just down the street same side as hotels or la Reine Blanche, much further down on opposite side.  You'll need to book at both.  American friends we meet in Paris every winter always stay at Hotel des Grandes Ecoles, rue du Cardinal Lemoine, 5eme (www.hotel-grandes-ecoles.com)  It's rather like a small country house in the city centre and has a beautiful garden, so rare in Paris. Enjoy.  M  

Thank you Dick, useful insight.  Interesting to note when, for example, looking for a rambling house with land en Perigord that a modern apartment with balcony on the Cote d'Azur with distant glimpse of the Mediterranean can be picked up for around the same price today.  Different experience, admittedly, for there won't be the peace and quiet of country life, nor the slow pace.  But neither will you have to wade through mud when going out to the car in winter or have to nip out and chop wood on freezing cold nights to keep warm. I know Nice isn't exactly tropical in mid-winter but has anyone ever been anywhere in France colder or damper in mid-Feb than Nontron?  I shiver still at the memory...  M 

Richard, and very best of luck to you to!  It's an excellent standard to have attained.  Being self taught how do you manage the oral element of the course?  Do you have anyone to talk to?  I don't know which Board this girl's doing, didn't think to ask as I'm not very up on these things. Been a long time since I sat an A level, I'm afraid... M

Pat, the same little group I mention in my posting would probably say that the British are also extremely conscious of how much people earn and that it's an extension of their (our) desire to slot people into groups/classes.  But I'm not sure I'd agree for they all talk openly practically to the point of boasting about their finances.  I remember a neighbour of ours in Paris coming in one evening with the concierge.  Whilst we were talking I could see them doing mental calculations as to how much the furniture and bits and pieces in the room were worth.  As she left, the neighbour stroked the John Lewis curtains as though they were a priceless Dior gown.  I was quite touched.  M

Fascinating that different people can look at the same set of figures and come up with totally different responses.  I didn't consider how much they were earning, it was the spending pattern that interested me.  I read the article in the library so can't tell you now who looks after the UK family's children or whether she even works part-time, which perhaps she does on reflection. However, can't deny surely that far more French families rely on a childminder than British ones do?  Also, look at the figure for running the car.  That's something that even retirees notice when they move to France and often have to get the car out even to post a letter.  Difference in all utilities (including phone/Net).  Difference in amount spent on children in France.  Val and other parents often warn of the financial demands of school age children in France and this is reflected here.  Finally holidays.  All the world think the French are permanently on holiday but I'm sure they spend far less than their British counterparts.  Possibly because more of them holiday at home, which is understandable when you have huge variety of landscape and more reliable weather.  And an interesting contrast to so many young British families today who think little of jetting off to Thailand or Florida for their summer hols. M   

Good that somebody asked. A number of good people whose opinions I disagreed with but valued have disappeared over recent years. Quite a number of us have enquired.  I'm personally very sad that Pucette stopped posting - feel it's like losing a friend you see regularly - but acknowledge that people move on. But I agree, where do people disappear to?  I've toyed with posting such a question.  Anyone remember "samm" and those unforgetable invariably spot on one liners, always in lower case, never a capital letter to be seen.  And how about "Les Jongleurs" and their hens, are they still out there somewhere?    Like Tag I often wonder why people stop.  Many are, I know, permanently put off by what they see as the sometimes agressive tone of the arguments on here.  Other ex-members tell me they can't stand the constant moaning (where?).  Then there are people who, I guess, just want to do different things, are no longer interested.  Or "grow out of it" I can hear critics saying!  Can't remember when I first found the Forum, mid 2000, I think.  I would say, if anything, it's better now especially as there are so many more members and more people posting, it was very small then, 400/500?  I remember when we broke through the 1000 mark, it felt as though all the world had joined.  There have always been heated debates.  I'll never forget the furore over the price of supermarket chickens soon after I joined.  I remember thinking, these people are crazy to get so het up over the price of poultry.  As you can see, nothing changes. M

Bordeaux might be cheaper than Montpellier, for example.  Or it might not, I've never been to Bordeaux! SB, you must go to Bor-deaux, it's beautiful.  Best French friend has an appartment in the city centre, bought it 7 years ago pour les enfants when they were at uni there.  Now valued at around Euros 500,000, ie almost Paris prices.  Although the city appears to be booming, both her children had to move to the capital to find employment after graduating.  Full marks to the poster for such a realistic approach.  Am personally very interested in this town v country debate and often wonder why so many retirees opt for the middle of nowhere. M

I've certainly seen a book on this precise subject recently, was it a Daily Telegraph Guide To Setting up a Gite Business in France?  It was certainly part of a series.  Worth checking those on Amazon.  Also, have you tried the Living France bookshop?  M