Oracle

Chessie Following on from the previous thread. Regeneration of Zeolite is normally done at the Beginning of EACH season.  WHY? Because it’s done to maximise the benefits of the UNIQUE quality of Zeolites and that is Ion/Canton Exchange, which means that this material has a capacity to 'absorb' Ammonia (NH4) along with a number of other unwanted compounds and metals in your pool water.  For your wider comprehension, Ammonia will be produced in the process of Oxidisation of organic matter in the water from chlorination. Ammonia aids and amplifies the IsoChloramines which is the by-product responsible for the nasty smell and taste of pool water (often mistaken for chlorine). So once the season is ready to start if you dose your filter with the right number of Kgs of Rock Salt (quantity depends on volume of the filter) and let it soak for 48 hours then a strange thing happens, meaning that the Sodium atoms in the Salt (NaCL) displace the Nitrogen in the Ammonia which is trapped in the Zeolite and therefor liberate the space so that the Zeolite can go on absorbing Ammonia for another year....   MAGIC!  Cleaner water and a nicer pool for another year...  all because of a gift from nature....  Mineral Zeolite! So your job is to keep it at its best and that means - regeneration using rock salt. O  

Chessie The simple answer to your question is - It Depends!   More Info: As All Zeolites are NOT the same, it depends on the origin of the Mineral you have installed. If it originated from Eastern Europe then it may well be close to end of its usefulness, South African source is a little better but not appreciably, Mexican and South American are a good bit better, but the Best by a country mile is that Zeolites originating from Australia. Why ?  Its a function of hardness, as the first bunch are around 5 on the Mohs hardness scale (quite soft like calcaire nearly or like sand)  http://geology.about.com/od/scales/a/mohsscale.htm  whereas Mexican is nearer 6 (like glass) but the Australian source is the ONLY one which is 7 (similar to Quartz) which offers the longest life of any.   So, it depends on the Brand of Zeolite which can sometimes identified by the colour- so if yours is a reddish pink colour (Australian Source) then you're good for another 5 or so years at least as it will be largely as it was when you first put it in. If yours is beige/grey then it’s very soft and could well be starting to degrade into a powder which will eventually be worse than useless as a filtration media because it will 'clog and cake', so it could well be time to change.   So answer the question then hubby will have to take the lid of the filter and find out what is in there. While he is at it then regeneration of the Ion/Canton exchange properties is a good idea (normally done at the beginning of EACH season).  More on that in the next thread.   O    

[quote user="powerdesal"]'' You know that climate change is here and that it will get worse.'' I presume you are a believer in the religion of man made climate change. Wake up to reality.[/quote] Well to that provocation I can only answer the following; Whereas for Religion (of all kinds) there is no proof whatsoever that the doctrine is true Whereas for Climate change as a consequence of manmade activity not only has substantial proof  supported by fact but EVERY respected scientist supports the JURY which is IN to verify it as fact. I can’t believe that in this age you can come on to a public forum and bleat 'wake up to reality' which now puts you into the diminishing group of zealots who cannot or will not accept responsibility for your (and everyone else’s) misdeeds despite the certain knowledge of its consequences, meaning that there is no credibility what so ever to your case. So to compare the concepts of Climate change to Religion shows no understanding of either. O  

[quote user="sallyMcC"]hi sorry to hijack, but rather than start a new thread, ........ Ive inherited a rather large 4 floor if you include cellar and attics house in northern Mayenne 53, it has an oil chaufaudiere which was probably old when noah was a lad, of about 65Kw, it takes up a large cupboard in the hall about 3 ft by 10 ft, and I would like to change it for something a. smaller in physical size. b. more enegy efficient c. cheaper to run we think the energy output is about right for the house, as when fully renovated it will have 9 double bedrooms and bathrooms!!!!! and pleanty of common space as well. there is gas in the village, but not to our house, and not easily accessed, we face south, but are the old presbytre,  and overlook the church, so will not be allowed solar.  we plan to have at least 2 big woodburners as back up, and I rather fancy a woodburning oven/backboiler combo if I can persuade himself, the plombiere who has had a look (devis awaited) seemed to think we couldnt get a much smaller boiler, although i have found smaller 65-70Kw oil boilers on t'interweb wich are about a 10th the size of what we have now, but they are english websites, what am i missing, and what might the issues be? [/quote] Sally If I would feel sad at the passing of the day if I had not at least tried to persuade you to avoid any re-subscription to oil as a heating fuel. You know that climate change is here and that it will get worse. All of the adverse weather events of the last decade have been made worse by the millions of us who have made wrong choices about heating fuel and cars and so on. Oil must be avoided at all costs as a fuel for home heating, gas to be minimised if possible, choose carbon neutral options like wood, and solar combinations. Electric in France is nuclear as is well known but it should be a backup to minimise the impact. Be aware and not blind to the consequences and dragged by the nose with all the sheep bleeting on about 'payback' and costs blah blah blah! They have no idea the damage they cause. Look for yourself at 'WHOLE OF LIFE COST' you'll find out that there is more to the number than the cost of installation. Get some smart advice; What can we all do about climate change.....?  well it starts here, make the right choice for your home heating and feel that you've done the right thing. Our GENERATION ARE RESPONSIBLE for this climate problem because we knew about the problem and still did not change our practices. SO now WE have to start the change so that our children can live in a world that is liveable; Rather than a constant war between civilisation and the weather. I know some expert technician who can design a multifuel systems that can heat your (large) house and not impact the carbon loading..... I'll send you their contact details if you want. but please THINK before you start your project, and not just about your pocket. O

Such a shame to loose those wonderfully engineers internal steps you made, I guess that they will be on ebay by and by. Never mind, I'm sure that you'll make a nicer job of the builtin steps too John. You know that you'll have to be careful of the details in the liner as your water is so clear that everyone can see the smallest defect. Of course you know who to thanks for that.   O

Frank You'll find that LPG (bottle or cistern gas) is probably the most expensive option you could pick.  Ground source heat (not geothermic)  is expensive to install as you say but cheap to run. The best whole of life cost by far is a combination system using solar and something else, perhaps Wood chip or pellet. What ever, you need expert advice from a heating engineer to see what will suit YOUR house as no 2 systems are the same and everything is variable. If you want to talk to one such then I do know a few and give you the contact detials if you wish. O

Well it seems nothing much changes in forum land. I don't intend to do anything more to guide either you as clearly that is a lost cause. But for anyone else out there who might be considering such things, know that when you calculate something like this, the best results will be gained considering ALL the factors not just the one to get the outcome you expect.What has just been illustration in the posts above is the way NOT to make a fiscal analyis of heating technology. If cost/payback is the only issue in the deliberation for what ever the system should be,  then add Installation + (running costs x compound increase over the rest of your life) + maintenance + possibile replacement cost of both systems and at least then a realistic comparison might begin to emerge.For reference, the result you should get is something between 3 to 6 years. Mine was a big system and has just now reach its amortisation point after 5 years. That'll do I think. O

Quillian Yes an attempt but too pessimistic. If you rely purely on cost/payback calcualtions to make this particular decision, then you could probably convince yourself of anything. Just get the right numbers and it looks great or conversely like a disaster. Most of the people who buy solar are a fair bit more sophisticated than that, including me, I use reason too. So if you are stuck with your pêncil and your calculator then consider the following; whole of life cost, including increases in the price of energy you didn't say how much water you need but let us say its 200lt -€5kis on the high side, €1000 installed is also possible more and more home owners think that its a responsible choice, home value increased. Its a simple system, very little or no maintenance or replacement cost. there are lots of other reasons, but you either like it or you don't. O

[quote user="nomoss"] Maybe you would understand better if your house roof faced north, or you didn't expect to live another 50 years[:D] [/quote] No ! Niether of those issues are a constraint necessarily. O

Well Johnnyboy When your solar system does eventually get up to speed and there is really no reason why it shouldn't (perhaps with the exception of .... installers who are not great at their job) then you will have the advantage over most if not all of the previous posters. The future for them is certain - certain to feature rising costs and as they have chosen these bought fuel systems with no thought for the future, then, up and up and up it will go (the cost of their fuel). Whereas yours (and mine ) will never change not so long as we live - our cost was (virtually)NOTHING when we installed it; it is NOTHING today and it will be NOTHING in 50 years to gain all the energy we can from the sun to heat our water. We have chosen to take advantage of the radiation which is available to everyone, only not everyone want's it (something I really don't understand). I'm more than happy that my 120 tube system has paid for itself in cost savings, more than happy that it does for most of the years HW and more than happy that it contributes to the heating of house besides (especially during these glorious sunny winter days). I'm a happy man, hope that you will be too. Fuel prices can do what they like... I'm OK Jack; O

Graham who would that be then...? O

Vernon So considering all you have said, you need to call Andy [removed] as he is about the only one I know who can fullfill all of your requirements at the moment. Don't be surprised however when you are asked to pay for the site visit as I understand it, his services are in demand. I think that the last one he built was 14 x 7 but there might also be one of his quite near to you. Anyway, good luck with that one. O Post edited by a mod. Please refer to the forum Code of Conduct.

[quote user="cruddler"].... We have a 2000l EK+K tank.... Your pool assumptions are pretty much spot on in that we would hope to achieve 25 degrees+ and use the pool from April/May - September depending on the weather. The pool will be 10x5 with average depth of 1.5m I would hope to try and insulate the pool as much as possible too. ......... I think I could squeeze 90 tubes on the south facing roof plus another 30 on the vertical wall it sits on which should be useful in the colder months when the sun is lower. .............One question about potentially running under floor heating in the colder months, is there any reason why water can't be sent straight from the panels into the UFH bypassing the accumulator? As the temperatures required are only in the 40 degree range, is it not more efficient to pump it straight into the floor when the panels are operating at lower temps? Thanks[/quote] Andy Interesting questions. So the accumulator has standard insulation and I assume 2 heat exchanger coils. Your spec is doable but you are going to have to watch for losses if you want to get good results and you are right to pay attention to the construction of the pool by insulating all sides, surface and the floor, but don't bother with UK firms, there are people here I know who know a lot more about it. In particular about integrating heat from solar or bought fuel and retaining it. These people are at the cutting edge and not stuck in the 1960's like most of the firms here (and in the UK). You can't use the solar circuit as a distribution circuit on this scale, as there is no controllability. There will also be issues with air pockets and glycol and a lot of other stuff, don't go there, you already have the (nearly?) best 'heat hub' you could possibly have, now you need some who really knows how to make the best use of it to design your system for you. If you really want to make the best project possible you are aiming for what I call 'ENERGY 'A' rated pool. If that's what you want then its very possible and you'll enjoy the benefits of these decisions for decades to come as you pool costs a pitance to operate when everyone elses becomes so expensive to keep up that they have to choose between rennovations, or filling it in.  To get this advantage, you need to make decisions at this point and to work with specific people who understand what to do, else you'll be amongst the latter group.  More details by email. O 

La Motte colour Q7 PM me for details on where to get it. If you don't invest in good test equipment then you will never get to know what is going on with your water chemistry and any sort of diagnostic will be impossible - or guesswork. O

Andy I know the Akvantti very well as I've got one too, Mine is a 2400EK which means that it has a coil (heat exchanger) up high on the left for preheating domestic hot water and another below that close to the bottom which is for accepting the Solar circuit. So yours might have just the bottom coil in which case it would be the 2000E or two coils in the it would be the 2000EK. Neither of us therefore has the addition of the acid proof coil exchanger for accepting chlorinated unfortunately. But don't despair I know what needs to be done and I've contacted the installer I mentioned who lives in Dept 73, he also has a solar multi-system and will be well able to reproduce that for you. He is in the swimming pool and spa business and so understands what is needed. I'll send you his contact details via PM. The second question you asked requires the answers to more questions before you can get close to a cogent response. Firstly, What will be the pool volume, 10 x 5 x ?, if we can say that its 75m3 then that would be about average. Next, the insulation on the pool surface matters more than anything else as whatever energy you put into the pool needs to be preserved and not lost to the night sky. So I suggest a floating security cover, which will also comprise your complaint security obligation. Finally what is the temperature you want and when do you want to start swimming; let’s say that you like it 25°C and you want to swim in May till end of September. If all of those assumptions are true then 16m2 of evacuated tube solar panel is not enough to get close to that wish list. I suggest that you will need closer to 20m2 (4 x 30 tube panels or more). But your installer is an expert at this and he can advise you better than I can once a site survey has been undertaken (which matters a lot by the way). Make no mistake; a swimming pool of that size needs a serious amount of energy to raise the temperature even a little bit. The Solar system I discussed is a ‘medium solution’ but not so much that you have a problem to dump lots of heat in high summer when your pool has had enough and there is still more to be had. The real benefit here is that all of the energy is FREE and if, you have a system like you are contemplating which can make use of the energy whenever it occurs throughout the year then it’s absolutely ideal. You will be well set up for the rest of your life. The purchase of the Akvantti even though it wasn't set up perfectly was the best purchase you have made so far.(well done!) O