Poolguy

[quote user="Steve"] I appreciate the rules and regulations that go with having building work done on our house in France and the importance of making sure that the builder is registered etc. which we have done religiously up til now.  But what are the actual implications of using "foreign" builders who are unlikely to be registered in France?  Some friends of our in Northern Spain have had some fantastic renovations done to their old farmhouse - it is simply stunning and took the spanish builders 5 months to complete which was on time and budget (a fraction of what we have spent on our house).  We have been trying to get a small extension built for the past six months but even trying to get a quote is so time consuming and the 2 French builders we have in mind have quoted a ridiculous amount of time to build it and the price is even more ridiculous.  They initially promised to start (if we employed them) in March 2009; but this has already been put back to June!  Our friend's builders are currently without work due to the downturn in Spain and can complete the job in half the time quoted by the French guys at almost half the price.  Alternatively some other friends in Spain have recently employed some Polish builders who are equally enthusiastic and reasonably priced.  Do we really have to use French builders, especially as they can be so frustrating with their timekeeping and prices? [/quote]   Another point of view. It is perfectly legal to employ these people if they have a registered business in their own country and you are engaging that company to undertake work in France. Europe is after all the ONE COUNTRY from a free exchange of goods and labour point of view. If you wish to explore this route than you will need to ensure that these foreign companies who have quoted for the work, register their presents in France for this project at the Marie and Hotel des Impot. Having done that, and received no objection (Spanish should be OK but the Poles tend to have trouble in this regard) then you are free to proceed and there is not a blind thing that the local artisans can do about it. Its competitive business after all, and provided that their work conforms with codes and norms, (something which rarely happens with French artisans anyway) then nobody can complain. Interestingly, you will be obliged to pay their bills into their Bank in their country along with the TVA on labour, but if they supply materials from their country as well then you don't pay the TVA if you are tax registered. If your not tax registered then you pay their TVA on everything. Do not however short-circuit this system, for as correctly described above, the consequences of 'travail noir', are grave indeed and not worth the savings. Do it right and you can sleep soundly at night, if you cross the line then no one can help you. Good luck

By a long shot the best heating solution for those equipt to do it. Least maintenance, most energy, least cost, DIY if you want it. The secret is to build you own chip dryer, as you point out any chipper large or small will produce the material to burn but you need to dry it and store it for when you want it, otherwise you risk spontaneous combustion. That stage is not so simple but, I designed a solar powered dryer (thermal not electric) for use in africa (low tech) and a feeder, not rocket science. The burner is specific as well and you need to get the dimensions of the chips right otherwise you get endless blockages, but its simple enough stuff. If you looking at burners get one with forced air or even better pressurised oxygen to the combustion chamber. That way you get a complete burn and little or no ash to shift every so often. THe ones I am looking for will produce an ash pellet the size of a hockey puck every 3 weeks. Keen stuff. There are also many other things that you can burn, quit surprising too, dried corn for instance, rubber chips, .....the list goes on. Free energy, .... not quite,  but going in the right direction. Connect it up to an accumulator and its cosy time for the duration, solar for a boost through the warmer months. Andrew

[quote user="Sharkster"]Just checked the readings of my pool before closing and I have a ph of 6.6 and TA of 49.  Does this need increasing before closing?  It is a above ground pool with a liner. [/quote]   Its absolutely imperative that you take great care of your pH (and therefore total alkalinity) during the winter period. This year we had more calls than usual complaining about wrinkled liners, the prime suspect has been pH out of balance for a long period. There is no solution to a wrinkled liner once it has 'grown' due to this problem. I am guessing but with some imperial data I can say that I accuse the rainfall in France over past year of being heavily acidic. This will case an immediate imbalance in any pool and if left uncheck will result in the damage to liners as described above. As everyone knows, the most rain falls in Autumn and winter, this is also the time when no one wants to pay attention to their pool during that time - hence the problem. So Sharkster Raise the TA to 180ppm which will take you about 3 days from where you are ( a little Bicarb at a time) and then balance the pH at 7.3 and only then say 'nighty night Mr Pool' Less than a month till Christmas have a merry ole time. Andrew  

Cheminot I think that you are a very tolerant client, and Intex is luck to have you. What with the liner unservicable and an inadequate pool equipment (this is a well known phenomenon in France) and you are still a 'happy customer'. I hope everyone wanting a new pool for next year is like you. Andrew

Or there is Evacuated tube solar..... earn from the sun directly. another option to think about I guess! I am!   Andrew

Once again I find my self agreeing with Teapot, Baz et al And very much at odds with 'practice' of pool maintenace in France; I choose 10°C water temperature as the trigger to close. Why? its very simple, above 10°C algea will still multiply and below they will not, (they are dormant). SO if you winterise too early then you are complelled to use even nastier chemical than usual to keep the water clean. If yu wait a little then the job can be done just with a chlor choc treatment - nothing else is required. None of these pool manitenance firms here have a clue why they are doing what they are doing it seems, just doing things to suite the need for work. Andrew  

  Difficult to get hold of Desjoyaux in Dordogne at the moment, I heard an ugly rumor that the Owner of the Bergerac and Perigueux Concessions has 'done a runner' with the deposits.. I guess the Company will go into liquidation. Lots of people out of pocket and no finished pool. This sort of thing doesn't do any good for the industry. Not sure what to say about it, but 'be very careful '-I guess.   Andrew  

If you want the best of all possible systems, have a look at http://www.akvaterm.fi/?tocID=3 These systems can store heat throughout a month if you want in a grand body of water and provide heat to radiators, underfloor heating or an instant Domestic hot water coil. I've just put one into my place 2400lt and its incredible, If you want further details, then send me a PM   Andrew

Weber Joint is the best you can use, there are cheaper brands of the same thing, it depends where oyu are and what suppliers you can find. Teapots remarks apply equally to chlorine direct and to salt chloine pools as they are the same thing- they both have chlorine in them.   Andrew  

Richard I know that there has been a consultant looking into the sale of Chemigem into the US but the last I heard that the somewhat draconian health and safety laws, along with a protectionist import duty policy of the US has slowed progress so far. But the New system DM53 will go someway toward addressing some of the obstacles and I for one would have no problem selling even now to the US via mail order. If your Dollar ever recovers from the Subprime crisis then it might even be affordable. As for Navitron V EPDM matting V (anything else), well I don't get too bogged down these days in the theoretical comparisons based on 'benchtest' results as they bear little resemblance to the actual performance in the field. My remarks covering 9m2 of evacuated tubes put 5°C addition to a 10 x 5m pool ( 1-2m deep) was an empirical observation on REAL EVENTS. There was 8 people there to witness this marvel, and yes the cover was OFF at the time (so what), in all my years of working on pools I have never seen such a result with EPDM mats, no matter what surface area is connected. I do not know how you can be so sure the "it wasn't due to the solar panel but mostly Sunlight hitting the pool"(ed Chemgeek) as you were not there at the time (or at least there was none answering to the name Richard or Chemgeek there), and to the best of my knowledge you do not have a Navitron system on your pool - to proffer your opinion what is and isn't the case concerning my product in my installation is a bit of a liberty - one which I have not afforded you. Even if you have calculated it (form what data and with what logic I am still not sure) then you are wrong, because it happened in Villemain (79) on Wed 10 Sept 08 just like its doing for a 100 or so other system across France at this time. Certainly, I am not stupid and I know what I saw and why it happened. So now I'm going out to sell a 100 more or so, mainly to people who want to see it work, even if they do not fully understand how it works - because many of them also own a car without fully understanding that either. But they trust their eyes when they see the results and if its what they want - then they mostly buy it. Good luck with your own pool then, but I would prefer if you resisted the temptation to further pick apart my products and posts as your analysis has long since outlived its welcome. Andrew  

[quote user="JohnRoss"]The most common ones here seem to be solar mats with pool water passing through and the more expensive racks of heat pipes with a separate pump and heat exchanger. The figures for flow rate and temperature rise are the all important ones that would be good to know so comparisons can be made......................JR[/quote] John Ross Not exactly sure what you mean about the cost. Is it cost per m3, cost/Kwh, or just....? What exactly. I can tell you that based on the purchase price/heat output (theoretical)/ life span of the various options, evacuated tubes are about €0,04/kwh, Glass panels vary around €0.14kwh and the EPDM mats are about €0.35- €0.50/kwhr, is that the type of comparison you mean? To me the comparison is quite simple, vis: How much do I have to spend to heat my pool in (say) May from 19°c to 25°c and then keep it there for as long as possible? Well if you've got a 10 x 5 pool then using EPDM mat, you'll need about 60% of your surface are (at least if not a little more) which is 30m2 at about €130/m2 plus installation, SAY €4,000. Now for that you will have to keep the system free of air locks, put up with a reduction in the circulation rate of your pool and drain the system in winter, as well as find somewhere that has a large area that you can cover with a very large black thing that doesn't bring down the aesthetic of the whole area. It only works when it sunny so don't expect too much by way of heat gain unless you can also see the sun. June to August - not much of a problem, May....? HHHHmmmm The same pool with Evacuated Tube Solar system you'll need 9m2, it can go out of the way a little more, not so sensitive to orientation (SE- SW), will work so long as there is UV radiation around even on cloudy days, it will work right through the winter, you do not have to drain the system, and will certainly give you the temperature you want in May-October (I have seen systems raise the pool temps 5°C in one day) and (guess what) the price..... is about €4,000 plus installation. Does that answer your question? What is it you want to know about flow rates.... the slower the better n'est pas PM me if you want more information Andrew

Richard (Mr Chemgeek) I do understand your construction but hear this if you can. We live in France ...... you live in the US. These places are not the same and things are not done the same. In this country Pools which are not for private use (that means more than one family) are controlled by the DDASS (Directione Department des Affaires Sanitaires et Sante - or Dept of Health), All pool operated in this fashion are controlled by means of regular testing of their water. Their norms states: Stabilisabte . Acid isocyanurique / MAXIMUM 75mg/l à maintenir de préférence entre 30 et 50mg/l Do you notice a similarity with my advise .... perhaps? (if you can read French then I could give you a link) Now you will say, that private pools aren't public and so you can do what you want and so , and so , blah blah blah But now I say, and hear this ... concentrate now! This is a public forum, and from my 4 years of contributing, mostly half or more of the contributors are operating Gites (holiday homes) with a pool, which is classed as 'public pools' and therefore controlled by the DDASS. Now if a pool owner either by following your advice, or going it alone or is even just not paying attention and Exceeds 75ppm CYN then the inspector is entitled to order that the pool be emptied/closed. That can be catastrophic for a small business. You might find this unjust, not scientific, unnecessary, well its the law and if we want to live in France and conduct business then WE must abide by it. Hence, when I give advice here, its this norm which constitutes the bulk of it, at least the guiding principle, so that the ALL people reading don't see one set of rules for a group and another for the rest..... that is a state of confusion.  A condition which I am sad to say, you have done a lot in the last 3 days to foster, with better than 10,000 words on the subject with recommendations which do not apply to us here. I said in the beginning that your advice was of ‘questionable validity’ (to which you took offence because you do not understand the above - the US is not the whole world and never will be), I apologised for offending you because I thought your motives were well meaning - to be helpful. Now, I think that you are being destructive and I ask you to consider this carefully. Teapot (bless im) has followed the fray and thinks that there is a medium point, which I hope that we can find. I know that your (perhaps sole) purpose to come on this forum is to give me a slap, you opened your remark by say as much. Now you are slapped my friend. Andrew  

Gauwd... I'm getting really bored with this now ... and I'm being missquoted.... I said that in manually dosed pools a slightly higher chlorine level of 2.2 ppm FC would prevent algae growth in virtually all pools at that CYA level without the need for additional algaecides.  There is more than one way to control this and I gave examples of having even lower active chlorine levels such as 1-2 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA (that's a factor of 3 lower in active chlorine level than what Poolguy recommends): (ed Chem geek) If I recommed 1.5ppm FC and 30CYN please tell me how the above can be a 'factor 3 times lower'.. and please make it simmple I just no longer what to read 2500 (more) words to the get answer. Richard Ol chap, I haven't read anything from you that gives me anything to debunk the approach I've adopted, which incidentally works fine on more than 45,000 domestic and comercial pools world wide. I had great hope that you might have something to offer me, but I can see that you do not understand what I am asking you (which is surprising as I thought it was very clear). You know a lot about chemistry but you have a bit to learn about filtration, and an a tremendous amount to learn about listening to other people. They are telling me that your efforts a not wholly appreciated - you are not being helpful. I am sure you don't really care as you seem to be really enjoying yourself.. work away, then if that's how you get your jollies.   Ta ta Andrew

Bravo......   Teapot your the greatest! Andrew

Why Teapot Ol' chap Good to have you in the frey, stout fella...! Don't forget that Zeolite also removes ammonia from the water which is one of the principle culprits in Chloramine production (yucky chlorine smell) and other nasties. Zeolite also goes some way to remove phosphates and nitrates but this is never a published claim as it doen't cover all variables. I partuclarly like your reference to reducing chlorine levels the 'just enough', I've been banging on about this for ages and really not sure that anyone was listening.... (made my day that has..!) Because with 1 micron filtration from a zeolite filter and a 3 hours circulation time (I notice that Chemgeek mentioned 5 hours and 1 water changer per day- I recommend 2 water changes per day, and so does DDASS who require it) there is bearly nothing in the water to sanitise, hence less demand for chlorine QED. In Australia, we use an intergrated system to keep the water clean, not just to 'nuke it good jake', so I am tring to introduce that idea here - tough job. Basically its what you don't put in the pool that counts not what you do. That means only Sodium hypochloride 9.6%(chlor), Sulphuric acid (pH-), Bicarbsoda (TA+) Isocyanuric Acid (stabliser)...... thats it!!!!!!  No flocculants, no antialgea (don't need any) no Choc, no sun absorbers, nothing else......and never, never, never, saturate potable drinkable water with sea salt........ water as pure as it can be! Hey ho... Andrew

Richard Your generosity abounds, and you continue to add more useful discussion to this topic. I was rather wondering though is possible to say all of what you said in 1-13 .........in just 2 sentences and 4 lines. Its that task which occupies me.... can you help. Andrew  

Chem Geek ( my good fellow)   I must say that I (we) are most flattered that you have taken time out (and a considerable amount of that it seems to be) to visit us in our little forum over the ‘pond’. Surely as there must be only around 500 + visitors to this Forum, it should pale when compared to the mighty and extensive audience you are used too.   It does show that power of the Internet and that even communities such as ours can be international and benefit from all that that brings, such as your learned self to these shores. I am certainly no match for your zeal, no do I have time at my disposal to research, rebut or even type to volumes you have so generously offered - I have to work for a living.  However, I shall convey your remarks to my colleagues, who will not only have more time but the Academic prowess to engage your propositions and research, and I will certainly post their responses for your consideration.   I am sure that you took some offence to my remark that the propositions were of ‘questionable validity’, and for that I an sorry. Its that you see this audience is composed primarily of ordinary folk, many of whom have retired from business life and have dreamed of having a pool for some part or most of their life. England, Scotland and Ireland being what they are it’s not favourable nor practical to have one – they have no clue what your talking about, or why you are saying it. I on the other hand, grew up in Australia, where a pool is a necessity, certainly as important as a television for infantile development, so these matters are more familiar to me. Now all that is very chatty and ‘steady as we go’, but its this point to wit I pose my question to you.   What you have written to date may very well conform to accepted science, on that I do not wish to debate as yet (until I have consulted further), it may also be true that I have take some scientific ‘liberties’, personally I do not think that they are so grave. But I would hazard a guess that all but a very few of this audience, would have no clue what you have taken a considerable amount of your time to write about. Hence, my challenge you should you accept it, is:  To write in no more than 2 sentences and no more than 4 lines in a style which is intelligible, digestible and scientifically correct to our audience.(say for example a retired couple in their early 60’s with no chemistry education what so ever and who have never owed a pool before)   What is the nature, relationship and effect of Cyanuric acid v chlorine, and Total alkalinity v pH in a swimming pool/spa, and why should owners care about this.   NOW if you can do that, then I will be very impressed, and I will say so. Because it’s this task I have been struggling with, and to wit you have raise objection to my projections.   Over to your learned self…..   Andrew

Well I certainly don't really see the benefit of posting this article. There is certainly some science there, but there are also many ‘claims’, which have no substantiation whatsoever - serves only to confuse the issue I think, as their validity is questionable. Pool maintenance and habits in the US do not bear much resemblance to the like in Europe or Exemplar countries such as Australia as the base conditions particularly the nature of the water are very different. The principles of chemistry may be the same but the application is no. We do not recommend for example that pool be run at chlorine (FC) levels up to 4ppm -that is a bit excessive. It has been clearly established and to date not disputed that at a Level of 1.5ppm (FC), the bacterium E.Coli has a life span of no more than 0.75 seconds (so long as CYN 30ppm, TA 80ppm pH 7.3) So why would any one raise the bar - to do what exactly? It is inconceivable to me that anyone managing these parameters manually could maintain such standards throughout a season? I suspect it’s a bit of 'Yankee Overkill' to make sure but entirely unnecessary in my opinion. In addition, the difficulty in managing chloramines is tied up with combined ammonia so the approach here is to get rid of ammonia -using zeolite filtration (better) rather than ZAP it with more chlorine (logic). Environmentally, it’s smarter to reduce levels of Chlorine consumption to 'just enough' levels and employ mechanism such as Auto dosing to keep it there. Overdoing it is a backward step. For the other posters question about the toddler pool- I would be interested to know the composition of the deposit on the walls. One factor that is often a problem, is that Mums put extra sunscreen on toddlers and are reluctant to wash it off before they have a dip and it could be this that is impregnating into the pool walls, certainly it is a devil of a stuff to get out of liners as it soaks right through in experiments I have conducted. Anyway, test is the only way to tell for sure. If you want any help then let me know. Andrew  

Thanks for the question. If you need more information about Evacuated tube solar systems you can look on my website, as far as an installation is concerned it depends on where in France you are. I can send you an installation coordinates OK if you email me your contact details. The system performes very well in all the installations (some times too well) but it depends a lot from site to site what the results will be. Value for money is a big question, but using bench test results Evacuated tube system out perform everything else by a country mile (4€/kw/h) DIY is also possible if you have some plumbing experience. Andrew  

....and just like the liquid version, is a Class 1 Carcinogen! There are natural alternatives but they are hard to find. Andrew

Teapot Sorry to have been lax but After the vacaton break, I am still waist deep in contacts, enquiries and support for existing customers (who usually come first), eventually I'll get through them all but may take a while, mean while I have replied to your question over on the other forum. vis; send me your contact details....etcetterra   Andrew

Filter media should be changed every 3 -5 years depending on the frequency of use and the water quality you are interested in. The sand in your filter is the WORST form of filtration available and is worthless as a product. Even though you have some 'life' left in it I recommend that you should throw it away and replace with zeolite, as the zeolite mineral is the BEST filtration medium possible and very easy to obtain and change. It will transform your water quality and make your pool that much easier to manage. You local pool shop will probably know nothing about it as they used sand in the first place and so that will probably advise you to use sand again. In reality this is the case for nearly every pool shop in France as they know nothing nor do they care on fig about the quality of water in your pool. All they want to do is to sell you more and more products to throw in there to keep it clear- even if that means that its not clean.  You see that CLEAR is not necessarily CLEAN - there is a lot in water that you cannot actually see and its these microscopic organisms that do the most harm so pay some attention to this. Creptosporidium, and Giardia are two common parasites found in pool water, 4.5 micorn and 5.5 micron respectively; in a sand filter (best 30micron worst 40 micron) they just keep going round and round doing their worst. In a Zeolite filter (1 micron filtration) these nasties get taken out in the first cycle, there really should be only one decision to make and that is why hasn't every filter in France changed over to ZELEAU. Certainly the answer is a mystery to me because there the reasons are so obvious that it doesn’t take any time at all to think about it. Anyway, I hope that I've answered you question a little, or a lot . Andrew

Jackie If you are happy with the experimentation, then let me not divert you. BUT if you want to know how to heat your pool from the sun then contact me, because you are not making good decisions up to now. TO further your research let me tell you that the evacuated tube solar system provides the most kw/euro by far than anything else on the market today including what your are now experimenting with. Its been researched extensively and the results are conclusive so even though you are spending small amounts, so is the benefit to your pool. The evac Tube will provide real temperature increase they do not need to be maintained or drained in winter unlike your 'wet system'. Andrew    

Blimey.........! What a lot of trouble you re going to, to invent something which is already very advanced and accessable. Evacuated tube solar panels will heat your pool and not consume your back yard or your time and money in the way its doing at the moment. But I guess you are more interested in Doing it yourself than getting the result... n'est  pas. Andrew  

[quote user="grasscutters"] I wonder if anyone can help please? We moved in 6 months ago so are still feeling our way with pool maintenance etc.,  However in Spring (and when we were experiencing heavy rain) we noticed the vinyl liner of our pool began forming wrinkles at the deep end.  These have now spread to the whole of the bottom of our pool, so much so, our robot now sticks on them and is not able to clean the pool well.  The liner is still covered by guarantee as it is only 3 years old, however we think the company who installed it are no longer around.  Can anyone give me info as to what if anything I can do about this problem?  Anyone suggest a pool person who might be able to help?  I am in Dept 47.   Many thanks. [/quote] You may not be aware that a liner can actually 'grow' - that is become bigger and so develop pleats. The main cause of which can be many things but the most commone is the pH out of wack for an extended period. There is no 'cure' for this the liner will not actually shrink again, so if you want to dispose of the pleats then its necessary to change the liner.* This may not be the cause in your case but its fairly common cause / effect.  The way to prevent it is to ensure that your pH is within the 7.2 - 7.6 range at all times. The best way to do this is with an Automatic dosing system the monitors the pool constantly and makes the necessary adjustments automatically, whether you are there are not. If you need help then PM me; Andrew