What level of TVA?

[Ron Avery]

I am seeking quotes for some building work that would normally be subject to 5.5% TVA

One devis is from a micro enterrprise and if I accept this I would have to pay 19.6% TVA for the materials?  They say that there is no TVA for the labour because of them being a micro.  Does this sound correct to those in this line of work?

Thanks in advance

[woolybananasbrother]

I did once read the conditions for a Micro and it said they didnt charge TVA so it could be right

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

I am seeking quotes for some building work that would normally be subject to 5.5% TVA

One devis is from a micro enterrprise and if I accept this I would have to pay 19.6% TVA for the materials?  They say that there is no TVA for the labour because of them being a micro.  Does this sound correct to those in this line of work?

Thanks in advance

[/quote]

It does but is the main reason that I think being in a micro enterprises does not work if you want to earn a living in France

[Stuart]

Just make sure you see the reciepts...

We all pay generaly 19.6 TVA  on goods bought...But some will charge TVA on top of their reciepts

(ie: double...1 lot for the shop and 1 lot for their bank).

You should offer to pay all materials on sight of the shop reciept..

I registered above the"micro" system due to potential future earnings.I understood that Micro could not charge TVA in any circumstances.

But I'm sure some better educated than I could shoot that argument down....

[Kitty]

With my artisan (who has a micro), we go to Gedimat together, he orders the materials and I pay for them.

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Cathy"]

With my artisan (who has a micro), we go to Gedimat together, he orders the materials and I pay 19.6% TVA for them.

[/quote]

With a non micro registered artisan you would get a 14% reduction on qualifying work wouldn't you but pay 5.5% TVA on the labour charges?  Seems that you would only benefit from using a micro if the labour charges are higher than the materials.

I have had a quote of 5500€ for the labour element only (no TVA) for installing a standard 3000 litre fosse in a flat field, that seems a bit steep to me, anyone else think so?

[woolybananasbrother]

Round me when I discussed it about 2 years ago I think the going rate was roughly 2500 to 3500 for the labour element, the difference between legit and illegit work.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

I am seeking quotes for some building work that would normally be subject to 5.5% TVA

One devis is from a micro enterrprise and if I accept this I would have to pay 19.6% TVA for the materials?  They say that there is no TVA for the labour because of them being a micro.  Does this sound correct to those in this line of work?

Thanks in advance

[/quote]

If he is a micro, then he cannot (usually - micros can be TVA registered) charge you any TVA. He will typically use the TTC price as his cost (and he should, of course mark-up this price). The only way you should "pay" TVA is if you pay for the goods with the supplier - bypassing the Artisan (this is normal practice for alot of micros). This also bypasses your 10 year warranty, of course.

Micros are not good for anyone -especially the Artisan!

[Ashfield]

I know this thread has probably gone dead by now, but came across this whilst searching for info on something else, but thought it might help someone else. 

Just wanted to say YES - 5,500 (HT) is really really steep.  Assuming a relatively straight forward drainage system, labour should be around 1500 - 2000€ HT.  For 5500€ you should be able to have a 5000L fosse with drainage system, including all materials (the artisan adding his bit on materials as he will have organised the materials and negotiated trade discounts etc) and TVA and still have some change!

Almost certainly better to use a TVA registered artisan if the job qualifies for 5,5% TVA in order to get the 5,5% on materials rather than 19,6%, and to use a registered artisan in general, as the drainage control authorities take the name of the installer to put on the certificate of conformity - better if you want to sell the place later on!

 

[Ron Avery]

Thanks for that Ashfield and welcome to the Forum, if all your posts are as informative as this one you will be a welcome asset to the Forum.  Thanks also to Nick and the others for their replies, I have of course challenged the price which would be for about 110 hours of work but included "machinery costs" so they are not hand digging it.[:D]

There is an element of fantasy about the price, my original estimate was half the current one, but that French builder rarely turned up or did much work. Maybe you have to pay double to get a builder (an English speaker by the way) who will actually turn up and do the job, or is that what this microman is working on[blink]

[Ashfield]

Thanks for your kind welcome Ron, and sorry about the size of the font last time - didn't realise it would look that big!!

I find it sad that people would charge more because they are English speaking (either Brits or French) but I'm sure you are right about your 'microman'.  I think in general, life here is like in the UK -  there are good artisans and poor ones - English and French.  The poor ones often charge ridiculous amounts as they aren't getting the work and feel it is up to you to subsidise them!

I guess another thing is that if your 'microman' is charging that much to do the job, he is going to hit is 27000€ limit pretty quickly.  I would have thought it quite hard to do any type of digger work, with the costs involved and be a micro, unless he doesn't need to do much work.  Round by us, the standard hourly rate for a digger (not mini) is normally around 50€/hr exc TVA.

110 hours with a digger would shift one heck of a lot of earth around!! 

A normal fosse system can easily be fitted inside a week. 3 - 4 days if all goes well, including installing and connecting all the parts, by a competent one man and machine.  The digging itself only takes around 6 - 8 hours in good ground.  Installing and connecting all components 1,5 - 2 days, then a day to backfill and tidy up. 

Hope this helps with finding a sensible quote with a good artisan!  Good Luck!

[Ron Avery]

Thanks again Ashfield, no relation to the Lord Ashfield of London transport fame who gave his name to the building next to West Kensington tube station in London featured on SKY's "The Tube" by any chance? 

Funny you should mention micro limit because in the conversation about the price it came up that the limit had been reached in March, assuming that was in this French fiscal year. 

This raises a further question about whether to use this micro should the price become reasonable.  Would any work now being undertaken beyond the micro limit of turnover of 27000€  be insured in the event of an incident or accident (not quality assurance) because surely any insurance that may have been entered into was to the micro, and I'm assuming that the risk and premium would be based on a micro's level of work?

[Ashfield]

No relation I'm afraid, unless they are phenominally rich and looking for potential heirs!

You raise a couple of interesting issues here:

1.  As the fiscal year in France is normally 1 Jan - 31 Dec, the fact that the micro had reached his limit in March, means that he/she had made 27000 Euros between 1 Jan and March (turnover, admittedly)!  Worth a thought!!  9000€ turnover /month?  What have they been doing since then?  It is (I am told) an exceedingly expensive situation to be in, to exceed this limit.  If you look around (accountants will verify this), not many French companies are Micros.

2. As regards the guarantee, it isn't obligatory for this type of work to carry the insurance. - this is verified by our (and other) insurance agents locally.

Speaking from our own situation and experiences, installing a fosse is controlled by the local organisation - round here it is S.I.D.E./Spanc/ SAUR or Sogideau.  They dictate the size of fosse and the type of drainage system which depends entirely on the land - i.e. the amount of land available for the drainage, and it's permiability.  As (I understand - someone may correct me on this) you now need some sort of certificate when you sell a house, it is best to do the work in accordance with their recommendation. 

They supply a small dossier describing the type of fosse and drainage system recommended, following a site visit, and they inspect the fosse when almost complete, and sign off the work, giving a certificate of conformity.  This in effect is your guarantee. 

They aren't prohibitively expensive - SIDE normally charge around 150 - 200€ for their initial inspection, their advice (invaluable to the installer, as the type of sand available in your area may or may not meet their specifications.  Better to check before than find out after) and their final inspection and certificate of conformity, naming and also signed off by your fosse installer.

I can only say that this is the situation in our area, but would assume that this is replicated in other areas. of France.

As regards your question as to whether the insurance (if they have it) would be valid - that I can't answer.  I understand that if, during the fiscal year, a micro exceeds the 27000 euro limit, that the company is still valid, but their costs become excessive - i.e. they have to pay more taxes/cotisations, unless they convert retrospectively to a larger company (EURL etc).  Some members on here, may know more information about this.

3. Does this micro have any papers - i.e., is he registered with the Chambre de Metiers?

I hope this hasn't depressed you too much, and may offer you some more food for thought!!

Regards

 

[Ron Avery]

I posted elsewhere on here in reply to someone asking about an inspection and doing their own fosse

"Round here you pay at least 50€ if they turn up to do the inspection, if you ask for an inspection its free, but you have to then do any work required to bring your system up to standard.  These inspections are going on across France".

The lady SPANCer (Service Public d'Assainement Non Collectif) we had did her inspection and gave us the doossier you describe, when the work is done we get her back before its connected and she signs it off, hopefully.........