First Income Tax Form

[gas]

Just received our first  Income taxation form, no 2047 "Declaration Des revenus A L'Etranger. Not exactly sure what to do with it. We have put it in a file for now, but it is like bad news that has to be dealt with soon, as the deadline seems to be 22.08.05.

 

We came to France in September 2004, and bought a house in October 2004. Since then we have not engaged in any work and are living off our savings.

 

I understand that a double taxation agreement is in place, however we are concerned that because the French taxation system is so expensive that we could face a huge unwanted bill.

Will the French authorities accept that since we were not resident until October that we have no further liability on our earnings that year, or will all of our earnings be taxed again and allowance given for the taxation that we have previously paid. In addition will we also have to pay social security payments, again.

 

worried.

 

GAS

 

[Teamedup]

You should have filled in a french tax return in March like everyone else, just on your income for time you lived in France in 2004. You should have got the form from the Mairie or Hotel des Impots.

We have to declare world wide income to the french authorities and you would also have to show that you had already paid british tax on your income.

 

Even if we have no income other than say interest on savings we still have to fill in a tax form.

 

I don't understand about the national insurance. We usually have to pay social security contributions in France unless you are retired. You would have handed in the appropriate E form to cover this.

[Montybird]

Hi Gas,

We also recently received our French Tax Rtn Form.  I hold my hand up that I did not go seeking it from our Marie or Ctr des Impots.  I kinda knew they'd catch up with me eventually.  No big deal hopefully, I'm just getting my own back and 'doing things in my time'... I know I shouldn't be like  that but after 15 months of waiting for others to get their act together I'm getting into the swing of it. 

Anyway, I also wasn't quite sure how to fill the form in so, I rang our local Ctr des impots, managed to ask in French if there is anyone there who speaks English that I could speak to.  A lovely man came on the line and suggested that I bring the form into his office and he would help me fill it in.  Very nice man he was too.  Another piece of red tape sorted.

 

[Teamedup]

Montybird, don't delay in the future or they add a percentage on your bill. And that means just the simple act of getting the declaration in by midnight of the due date.

[zeb]

Usually you have to go and collect your first tax form in Feb/March the year after you moved to France. After you have filled one in, the tax forms are sent out to you. We didn't have to pay any tax on our capital from the sale of our UK house (which was in French bank account) or small pension which is taxed in the UK. The French banks send out a sorm declaring how much interest (if any) you have earned on savings/investments and you must send one copy in with your tax return.

[Montybird]

Thanks Teamedup. 

Lesson learnt there then.

I like to think I'm a good law abiding french resident - just something new everyday to learn from eh!  I used to worry my self silly about 'doing things right here' and now tend to just 'go with the flow'.  Life's to short to worry

 

[Teamedup]

Go with the flow, no, you couldn't do that with ordinary bills or the fisc. Their money had to be in on time or as I said the declarations too. If you didn't then 10% would be added on.

Things may have changed but I wouldn't know as I pay most things by standing order.

It's just France, some things have to be done just so and others one chases one's tail. It took me quite some time to get to grips what was what.

[IAN_S]

Gas

We came to France in 2002 and mistakenly thought that we did not need to declare anything as we did not earn in France except a minute bit of interest in the bank.

We have a rental house and a large deposit account in the UK both of which are subject to UK tax so we thought not a problem with the French tax system.

Having found out that this was not so we completed form 2047 and the main tax form 2042 last year and sent them in,again to a very helpful man who changed one or two small things and have just received our Avis d'Impot which shows our calculations and zeros against tax to be paid.

So, for us, we are properly in the system now and hopefully will have no problems in the future, as our UK income will not rise dramatically.

 

 

[Ron Avery]

It is all rather simple actually. If you do not intend to live in France as a resident IE more than 183 days a year, you have no tax liability in France. If you are here permanently, you will pay income tax on all income received from the date that you arrived in France. You only have to declare income such as rent, pension, interest etc received from that date, what you did in the UK before that date is of no interest to the French

So for 2004, if your income is below about 5000E you will probably pay no tax as you will be below the threshold, but you may have to pay the social charge if you have unearned income, like savings account interest.

You may have got a tax form because you have applied for a Carte Vitale, the systems are linked as the amount of income declared dictates how much you pay in to the health system when your E 106 runs out, so the Impots knew that that you had not submitted a tax return,

[Will]

It's not quite that simple; although France does use the 183-day rule, which is how the UK Inland Revenue determines residency, France has other criteria it can apply if the impôts feel that you ought to be taxed in France. Obviously, if only small amounts are involved, these provisions are unlikely to be enforced, but they can affect you if, for example, you spend more than half of the year out of France but you have a home and/or dependent relatives in France, or your financial affairs are centred in France. Worldwide income must be declared in France if you are French resident, though if there are dual taxation agreements in force you won't be taxed twice on the same sum.

It is in your interests to make a tax return in France if you are eligible to do so, even if no tax is payable. It can pay dividends if you ever find yourself in a situation where capital gains tax may be due, for example, such as when selling your house.

[Catalpa]

quote:

= You should have filled in a french tax return in March like everyone else, just on your income for time you lived in France in 2004. You should have got the form from the Mairie or Hotel des Impots. =

Not necessarily true. In our case the Hotel des Impots (southern Manche) refused to talk to us in January this year and sent us away saying they weren't interested in people who'd arrived in the second half of 2004. Forms get sent out in June/July - we now have ours. So don't panic unduly, Gas. But definitely make sure you start getting paperwork together now!

[Teamedup]

Catalapa, yet another example of functionnaires. Just because they sent you away doesn't mean that you shouldn't have filled one in. A senior tax inspector told me that even if someone arrives in December then they should fill in a return for December.

And really how can 'not bothering' if you arrive in the second half of the year  be right. Do you really think if someone came and got a job that they could say, ah I've only worked here during the second half of the year, won't bother with taxes. It makes no sense at all and is not french law.   What can one say about the functionnaires...... well I know what I have to say about the ones that can't be bothered to do the job tax payers pay to be done properly.

[Catalpa]

Indeed, TU – acting on advice from this very universe… er… forum – we said at the HdesI: “Well, even if we don’t *have* to fill in a tax return, we *want* to fill one in as it gets us into the system…” but no, the jolly fonctionnaire was unmoved: we were refused the relevant forms. We were even refused irrelevant forms, which is unusual for France really.

So whaddya do? Make a scene? Risk being arrested and charged with “Harassing Officialdom by Lawfully Demanding to Pay Taxes”? Nope. We exited, forlornly clutching our little file of bank and building society statements, trying out our nonchalent shrugs while tentatively figuring out the French for “bu**er it then. At least we tried”.

We don’t get 6 months of 2004 tax free – any qualifying income gets rolled into this year.

[gas]

[quote]Gas We came to France in 2002 and mistakenly thought that we did not need to declare anything as we did not earn in France except a minute bit of interest in the bank. We have a rental house and a l...[/quote]

Thanks, We visited the tax office this morning. They were extremely helpful and understanding. apparently the doule taxation system covered all taxes that could have been due. they seemed to more interested in our earnings for the fiscal year 2004, so that they could compute the habitation tax, or at least that is what the impression that we got.

 

Whilst we were waiting to finish things up, we met a couple that had not filed for over three years.

 

Gas

[Teamedup]

Catalpa, indeed. So you have a roll over. Well just watch out that you don't end up paying extra tax then because those figures get lumped together and they may have been doing you a disservice by not allowing you to do as you at least, knew you should have done.  It will depend on your circumstances ofcourse. So good luck for next year.