Taxe foncier problems

[teabag]

Has anyone any advice on how to complain to and about a Tresor Public and its total inefficiency?

I hadn't had a bill for the Taxe Foncier so I went to the Hotel d'Impots and they told me that the bill had been sent to an address in the UK.  I haven't had an address in the UK for 8 years.  When we moved house in 2007 the Notaire forwarded all the details to the Tresor Public including the fact that the house was owned in my name and not a joint ownership.  I gave the Tresor all the details again, they said they had revised their records and as the tax was much higher than I was expecting I asked for a review.

I filled in an H1 form complete with French address, filled in forms for delai 3 months prelevement at 202 euros a month with French address.  They took 67,67 and 68 euros instead of 202.  They sent a demand to the UK again, then they stripped my French bank account to pay for the tax.  Not only that, they fined me for their mistakes.

I have been into the Tresor now 3 times, twice I got a shrugged shoulder treatment and told they 'didn't make mistakes'.  The last time I went in there, I was armed with 'avis d'impossition' for 2007 copies of forms for 2008 all of which were sent to the French address, and handed over a letter asking for the refund of the fine and an explanation of what had happened.

The Tresor said I wasn't entitled to a refund of the fine, I hadn't complied with their requests and more or less told me to go away and live with the fact that I'm paying for their mistakes.  After much argument finally the agent at the Tresor backed down a little when she had finally realised that they had made one almighty blunder and said that the boss was away and he would give his decision when he came back off holiday.

Has anybody any ideas on how to make sure that they refund my fine, admit they were at fault and possibly pay up compensation for all the agro they caused?  I know it's a very very long shot but somebody somewhere must have had something like this happen and got it justifyably sorted.

Any help would be greatly received.  Thanks to anyone in advance

[5-element]

Teabag, heartfelt commiserations.

I have had run-ins with Trésor Public and Centre des Impots before, fairly similar to what has happened to you (demands sent to an  incomplete UK address which was also 8 years out of date and which I had never received, coupled with the fact that the demands had been sent to me in error - mistaken identity!!). I had to make many phone calls  to clear it over a period of days - both to Trésor Public (who are the strong-arm debt collecters, the ones who empty out your bank accounts to which they have complete access), and the centre des Impots, (who  have the database with alleged names and addresses of taxpayers).

Unfortunately, the same events occurred again the following year, even though it was all supposed to be cleared up ( names and addresses had allegedly been altered etc). That time, it was even harder to clear it, (different emloyees, more obtuse even than the lot from the previous year!).

My point is that this type of horrendous mistake occurs much more than one would imagine. I have come across a number of French people who have stories of that kind about those absurd and really distressing mistakes.

If it hadn't got sorted for me, I was prepared to "porter plainte" for harassment etc... although not entirely clear as to whether to go to the procureur. What I had started to research then, was the "médiateur de la République" - there is one for each département, and he/she sorts out disputes between the people and the state. For that you have to build a complete dossier, and present it to one of the sub-mediators (I think they might be called senators) who will pass it on.

As for compensatioin being paid, that never happened, even though I had demanded

1) an explanation

2) an apology

3) compensation

which they might have had a good laugh about (some of my French friends thought it was hilarious that I should demand and expect any of these three...)

But I did get my bank expenses reimbursed (on presenting the invoice to the Trésor Public, sending it to a named idividual within their accounts department, who had intimated that yes, I might be able to obtain reimbursement - which amounted to about 100€ for each bank account concerned).

And I have a feeling that you can always utter the magic words of "Tribunal Administratif" - either that, or perhaps the "Conciliateur Fiscal", which some people on this forum seem to have experience of.

Skirmishes with tax offices etc. here are one of the things that raise my blood pressure, as you feel you are really up against a brick wall in situations like these - so I wish you persistence and doggedness to sort it out - they really should not get away with it. The main thing is don't give up, and be prepared to write a number of letters to different people repeating more or less the same thing, send them with AR (of course) - and mention the médiateur or the conciliateur or the tribunal administratif.

Good luck.

[5-element]

 

The Médiateur de la République site is now in English as well - http://www.mediateur-republique.fr/page.php?lg=en&rub=03

part of that site says:

First of all, before contacting the Mediator of the Republic, you must make an initial approach to the government department concerned - requesting an explanation or contesting a decision - and noted that the disagreement persists.

Next, referral to the Mediator of the French Republic is not direct: you must go through the intermediary of a member of parliament, deputy or senator, of your choice. You put together a full dossier, with a clear account of your problem and all the documents relating to the case. You hand this dossier to the deputy or senator of your choice and he/she will pass it on to the Mediator if he/she thinks it appropriate.

However,the Mediator of the French Republic's delegates can settle a large number of problems directly and quickly.You can arrange to meet one of the delegates from your department by making an appointment over the phone or by going in person to their office - ie at an easily accessible organisation(legal information centre, public services centre, community welfare centre, etc) or to the prefecture.

If the delegate cannot settle your problem, he/she helps you to put together your dossier and directs you to a member of parliament who will pass it on to the Mediator of the French Republic.

[parsnips]

Hi,

     First port of call is the"Conciliateur Fiscal" for your department. Get all the written matter together and send copies with a letter explaining your complaint and setting out any extra costs you have been put to. I have now had two very satisfactory experiences of this system (on behalf of third parties).

[5-element]

I read (with some delight) about your success with the conciliateur, Parsnips.

I should have mentioned that in my case, the Trésor Public chasing me were from a département other than the département where I live  - which is why I did not try to go this route - but you are right, it is the first port of call under more "normal" circumstances. Thank you for mentioning it.

[teabag]

Thanks to everybody for all the advice, it was much appreciated and the fight will go on.  Female I may be, English I may be but no way will some French jobsworth take my money and blame me for their mistakes.

Thanks

[Patf]

A more positive experience:

We moved from one french house to another nearby in 2006 and I wrote to the Tax F. people telling them to stop taking the monthly installments from our bank account. But they continued to do so after we moved for a few months.

I went into the office when I realised what had happened. They sorted it out and I got a complete refund quite quickly.

[teabag]

Some Tresors are pretty good like that, a friend had the same problem with demands going to a wrong address and was refunded with not trouble.  I think it's just the office I have to deal with and the attitude of some of the male staff there who definitely don't like having to deal with females.  Unfortunate but just one of those things that happens.  On the last visit I dealt with a lady who had to keep going to ask the males questions.  I don't think they liked the fact that their mistake had been spotted and no way were they going to admit to anything, but I'll keep at it; eventually I'll get it sorted.

[teabag]

OK, now I'm beginning to get really annoyed. 

I wrote to the Tresor Public, sent the letter AR, should have had a signature but according to La Poste they refused to sign for the letter.  Then I got a message on my mobile phone telling me that I had stopped the prelevement - which I didn't, and no way were they going to refund the fine. No way did they think it was necessary to write to confirm this.  There was no mention of the fact that they had sent the demands to a non existant address and at the moment there doesn't seem to be any way to budge them.

They made the mistakes, loads of them, refuse to admit that and are still making me pay for it. 

What can I do to 1) get my money back   2) make sure they have the correct address  3) stop the same thing happening again

I've notified them now 9 times, 6 times in writing and 3 verbally, even the notaire when I bought the house gave them the correct details and nowhere on the Acte de Vente or any other paperwork is there any mention of a long defunct address in the UK.

Added to that, I registered on l'autoentrepeneur and the RSI have messed that up as well asking for money I don't owe because they admitted making a mistake but won't confirm it in writing.  I have contacted them several times but knowing what these departments do I'm expecting to get fines for not paying them something I don't owe.

 

 Has anybody any advice, the whole thing is starting to make me ill

[NormanH]

Have you tried the solutions suggested by 5e and parsnips above?

[mint]

Poor you!  I certainly don't know enough about these things to offer any practical advice but you have my complete and utter sympathy.

I have had my own problems with this tax and the tax h but my experience is nothing like as horrendous as yours.  Parsnips kindly gave me advice, which I followed, and our case is, guess what, still under revision!

The practice of sending things to a UK address keeps recurring like a bad dream.  In the end, I contacted the people who bought our UK house and asked them to return everything to whatever French department letters were from, with a note to say we no longer lived there.  That seemed to have done the trick as the last couple of letters were sent to my French (and only) address.

The refund hasn't happened yet but all has been put back in their court and I refuse to pay bills that I do not owe.  I keep going back to our local Trésor and handing all demands for money back for them to deal with.  Fortunately, there are excellent staff at my Trésor who are all very patient though on the last few visits, I notice that many were adverting their eyes and pretending not to have seen me.

They now see me coming and hide, I reckon!

But Good Luck and let the knowledge that you are in the right give you the impetus to sort this.

[teabag]

Success or at least I think I have success

Tried the letter writing, the mild threats etc. The Tresor couldn't give a damn.  So today I got really cross and decided to go and confront the Chef de Tresor Public and not move from the reception desk until I had a proper appointment or I got to see him there and then.

I think the shock of the site of a very cross, very determined English woman allowed me to see the Chef very quickly.  His excuse - he didn't understand my letter or what I was asking for.  Probably because a French academic friend had made sure I used the right wording, right verbs and grammar before sending anything to them.  Then after standing my ground and refusing to let the Chef tell me I had to pay for their mistakes, I even told him to phone my bank and handed him my mobile to do so for confirmation that I had not at any time cancelled anything, he finally said he saw what had happened.  He very hurridly went to find some other paperwork, shouted at one of his staff, ran back into the interview room and actually apologised.  He said he would action the refund without further delay and repay bank charges. 

As to why the demands were sent to the UK, his excuse on that one was that the cadastres had all been changed and my details must have got mixed up.  He repeatedly said I hadn't notified him where I was living.  I produced the house deeds and the letter of confirmation from the Notaire from when I bought the house. He went very quiet and a little pale.

So it can be done, you just have to make sure you have every mortal bit of paper and refuse to move until it's sorted.  The more paper you have the more scared they become because you can guarantee that you will have more bits than they have, which means they may well have lost bits and that causes mega problems for them

Word of warning though.  The Tresor Public has the right to completely clear your bank account whether or not you know about it so if you don't owe anything spend a day harrassing the Tresor till they sort it.  It does work - eventually

On to the RSI now next in the line for being sorted.

Thanks to everybody who replied, all advice was very welcome and notes kept for future reference.    

[Gardengirl]

Well done you! It's certainly a good lesson to us all - be prepared with all paperwork, keep as calm as possible, and keep going. You must be feeling so pleased about it all. Now you just need the confirmation, so let's hope they don't keep you waiting long! Jo

[5-element]

Goodness gracious, Teabag - respect!

Fantastic results - although, what does it say about a system that allows such errors to continue for so long. and where you have to really, really put your foot down to get something sorted? And you say he actually APOLOGISED? I am quite gobsmacked. and of course, delighted for you. Well done, great work!

Exactly what I have been told over and over by French people:

"Il ne faut pas se laisser faire!" (which loosely translates as "You mustn't let them tread all over you", or "Don't take it lying down" etc...

[teabag]

Latest update:

I got a printout from my bank detailing bank charges and fine taken, took it back into the Tresor.  Lady at the desk almost hid, head tresor appeared from a little room off the main waiting room, THANKED me for taking the piece of paper in and said  this would be refunded direct to the bank toutes de suite. 

What's the betting they get it wrong again this year?  And what's the betting it doesn't take so long to get it sorted now I know how their system works.