Non Payment of Taxe D' Habitation

[GaryS]

We received our first demand for 2007 back in October. We had already paid our previous Taxe Fonciére using the online facilities and thought I would do the same for the Tax D' Habitation.

However I saw the option to pay over 10 months - (mensualisation) so I set this up.

We received a reminder in late Jan to make a payment or we will be surcharged (majoration), I ignored this as it came the same day as our bank account showing the 1st installment had been made.

Today we recieved another notice saying that they were going to use a third party (tiers détenteur) to collect the money.

I started to prepare a long letter enclosing all the documents regarding monthly payments and copies of bank statements etc, then the penny dropped! We had signed up to pay 2008 in advance in 10 installments with a final adjustment once the 2008 final demand is calculated but we had not paid the 2007.

In order to quickly pay the 2007 amount I went online only to see that my account has been blocked (Bloc.Saisie) for the owed amount.

Has anyone met this before? If I pay by cheque then how do we remove the block? Or do I simply do nothing and wait until they take the money?

 

[5-element]

 

 

You must act quickly, as a blocked account (which is what "avis a tiers detenteur" is, can lead to an "interdit bancaire". You must contact the Tresor Public immediately, as they are the only ones who can authorize your account to be unblocked - this will be called "faire une main levee".

This happens all the time. In 50% of cases apparently, it is because the Centre des Impots does not have your correct address (it can take them decades to change an address!) and so they keep sending reminders to an address which is no longer yours, so you know nothing about the threats....until, the first thing you know is your bank informing you that your bank account has been blocked. If you have more than one bank account (even a joint one with someone else), expect that ALL your bank accounts will be blocked. Unfortunately, this is standard procedure.

So, the centre des Impots has passed on your whereabouts to the Tresor Public, who are like the debt collectors for the centre des Impots. It is not unusual for one of them to have your correct address, the other one not. The Tresor Public, to my knowledge, NEVER checks whether they are blocking the right person's accounts, or for the right reasons, or whether they have the correct address. They are told to freeze your account, and that's what they do.

You have to phone up BOTH the Tresor Public concerned AND the centre des Impots. And try to sort it out with them. Warning: it might take some time. Other warning: sometimes you get a sympathetic, knowledgeable, competent employee, sometimes not. And remember that the right hand does not always know what the left one is doing.

I know quite a bit more about this than I would like. It happened to me twice....TWO years running. In spite of having sent letter after letter informing of my change of address, and in spite of having been subject to mistaken identity....I had absolutely nothing to do with the property that was the object of the tax demand....yet all my accounts were blocked, including the joint account with my husband. The second year it took 3 weeks to sort it out, as it was even more complicated than the previous year.

Welcome to the weird and wonderful world of LE FRENCH FISC. Not my favourite people

 

[Patf]

I would pay a visit to the bank asap. Haven't come across this before, but french banks seem to have more rights over your money than british banks.

[GaryS]

Many thanks, as it was only blocked for the owed amount today, we are going to add further money to ensure an adequate balance. Then ring them on Monday to discuss how to pay the debt and then hopefully have them remove the block. They are shut this afternoon!

At least we are paying next years tax in advance!!

[GaryS]

Just  to be clear they have not blocked the account but have created a Bloc.Saisie/atd for the owed amount

[5-element]

edit double post (due to intermittent wifi connection!)

[5-element]

In that case Gary, that's a new one on me, and I am glad for you!

 The two "Avis a Tiers Detenteurs" I was subjected to,  did block the whole of my 2 accounts, plus the joint account in my + husband's name. Maybe they are getting a little lenient, or maybe there are regional differences.

Usually, if the bank is acting on behalf of Tresor Public, the decision to unblock your account is not the bank's. They MUST receive the Avis de main levee from the Tresor Public. But sometimes, the bank can be helpful, and ring Tresor Public on your behalf. They are usually quite familiar with the problem, as it is a regular occurrence.

Please keep us posted, I would love for this to be resolved painlessly for you!

[GaryS]

All now resolved!

Fortunately when the bank removed the outstanding debt to a special account we had enough on deposit to cover it. This saved us from being overdrawn, which could have made things much worse.

We rang  Le Trésor Public the following Monday as they shut early on Fridays. The lady listened patiently and pronounced "c'est pas grave!" She then told us to return the Notification D'Avis along with our cheque direct to them and she would process it.

My cautious side was to arrange a further transfer from the UK to our bank account, just in case they presented the cheque first before lifting the block on the original amount.

How correct we were! They duly presented the cheque and 7 days later allowed the Crédit Agricole to return the blocked amount back into our account. So again we narrowly missed being overdrawn.

The thought of having our account restricted is frightening, we had arranged for everything to be direct debited - electricity, water, phone, internet to minimise postal problems or other delays and were congratulating ourselves on how smoothly things were going.

Thanks for your support!

 

 

[patnotinfrance]

First, you are all kind and positive with that. I'm french, expatriate fortunately but I have had the bad luck to know the avis au tiers détenteur. In fact, France is a shame, those practices are anti democratic and contrary to the human rights and freedom. If by chance, you move, you change your address or if an employee of the revenue agency makes a mistake, you will likely to have your accounts blocked to collect by force the amount that you owe.

For my part, I hadn't paid a tax of habitation cause they gave me a new one. I asked an employee of the trésor public to confirm that by e-mail then on the spot thanks to someone on my behalf. But a few months, I learnt by chance by looking at my online banking that I have been the subject of an ATD. The employees have been very insincere but they said yes to make a main levée or a waiver of the ATD. But my bank hasn't received the document yet. The employee didn't want to send again the document. ''we won't do anything more"'.

And though I have paid, for the moment, the problem is not solved yet. I agree that each employee will have a different reaction, that some are jerks, others understanding. I confirm that often, they don't take into account address changes although you tell them clearly you moved.

I've never received a letter to warn me of an ATD but instead of sending mails in france, they sent a mail overseas. The bank and the trésor public don't make many efforts to help me. It is illegal according to some courts or even to the european justice to act like that because you are not protected and presumed guilty. The revenue agency abuses this practice and they are both judge and party.

Moreover, the french administration, it's you pay and after we will see your claim. Many people leave France for tax harassment and they're totally right.

To advise us, contact your bank, trésor public, centre des impôts, pay what you owe and ask a main levée to unblock or unfreeze your accounts. You can have a minimum amount of money to live if your accounts are blocked or saisis.

Fortunately, here where I live, I didn't experience this. I don't dare to imagine how an english or foreigner can get by in french with people who lie, abuse and are not cooperative.

Good luck everybody.

[JohnKay]

Nice to have found this forum and hello all!

This is a bit long-winded and my question is at the end so I hope you will bear with me.

I got an Avis a Tiers Detenteur in the mail today saying they are blocking my CA account because the Tresor Public says I owe taxes (Fonciere/Habitation I presume).

I sold my house in April 09 and had always paid my taxes by prelevement. I'm quite sure they took the taxes for 2009 as I was put into overdraft last year which came as a surprise.

Its been a chain of incompetence and stupidity straight through from the estate agent to the notaire to insurance company to the bank. Credit Agricole have dinged me overdraft charges of 20 euros three times now because the insurance company renewed me on a house I no longer owned and CA didn't honour payment. Finally got the refund into the bank and thought I was 40 euros to the good. Then a notice saying I was 18 euros o/d again! Then the Avis today with CA saying there would be charges for this which I think is why I'm 18 euros o/d again.

I've had enough, these klowns don't even have an e-mail address to communicate with so I've decided to do as they do and ignore what I don't want, need or like: both the CA and the Tresor in Belves. My account is now blocked. But I don't care, I haven't been in France since 2007, have no assets there, don't want/need the account and I don't live in the EU. 

Basically I don't think they can do anything except fume.

Any other opinions about my "go to hell" attitude? 

 

 

 

[5-element]

 

Welcome to the forum JohnKay!

I so recognise this desire  to say "go to hell", familiar as I am with the chain of incompetence you are referring to... It makes you want to bang your head against the walls, and lucky are those who haven't encountered any such kafkaesque situation!

No idea what your circumstances are obviously, but a slight word of warning: "never" is a very long time, unless you are absolutely sure what the future holds for you - but if one day you had to have some connection with France again, you could find that the unresolved financial past comes back to haunt you. So even though "they" are clowns, you might still play the game until you are completely clean from their point of view. Still, it is your decision, and it may well be that since it is such apaltry sum, it will just be written off.

[5-element]

[quote user="patnotinfrance"]First, you are all kind and positive with that. I'm french, expatriate fortunately but I have had the bad luck to know the avis au tiers détenteur. In fact, France is a shame, those practices are anti democratic and contrary to the human rights and freedom. If by chance, you move, you change your address or if an employee of the revenue agency makes a mistake, you will likely to have your accounts blocked to collect by force the amount that you owe.
For my part, I hadn't paid a tax of habitation cause they gave me a new one. I asked an employee of the trésor public to confirm that by e-mail then on the spot thanks to someone on my behalf. But a few months, I learnt by chance by looking at my online banking that I have been the subject of an ATD. The employees have been very insincere but they said yes to make a main levée or a waiver of the ATD. But my bank hasn't received the document yet. The employee didn't want to send again the document. ''we won't do anything more"'.
And though I have paid, for the moment, the problem is not solved yet. I agree that each employee will have a different reaction, that some are jerks, others understanding. I confirm that often, they don't take into account address changes although you tell them clearly you moved.
I've never received a letter to warn me of an ATD but instead of sending mails in france, they sent a mail overseas. The bank and the trésor public don't make many efforts to help me. It is illegal according to some courts or even to the european justice to act like that because you are not protected and presumed guilty. The revenue agency abuses this practice and they are both judge and party.

Moreover, the french administration, it's you pay and after we will see your claim. Many people leave France for tax harassment and they're totally right.

To advise us, contact your bank, trésor public, centre des impôts, pay what you owe and ask a main levée to unblock or unfreeze your accounts. You can have a minimum amount of money to live if your accounts are blocked or saisis.

Fortunately, here where I live, I didn't experience this. I don't dare to imagine how an english or foreigner can get by in french with people who lie, abuse and are not cooperative.

Good luck everybody.
[/quote]

Patnotinfrance,

I did not see your post until the whole thread was brought to life by JohnKay who posted yesterday after you.

The story of your dealings with the bank and the Tresor Public etc... completely echoes what I had to deal with, as you can see my account above - but that was 2006. In fact, unbelievable as it it, to me, "they" did the same thing all over again in 2007!!! And that time it took much longer to resolve, as there was a real chain of incompetence (the Tresor Public sent the main-levee to the wrong branch of the CA, which was re-organising at the time and lost the document anyway - plus, that time, the employees at Tresor Public were particularly unhelpful, even when they were telephoned by bank employees of my seconf bank. To cut a long story short, it took THREE weeks during which all my bank accounts were inaccessible to me, and during which time I was shaking in my boots, hoping nobody would present a cheque of mine to be honoured as this could have led to an "interdit bancaire" for me for 5 years - and I had no power to prevent it...

So the incompetence, this following year, occurred because in spite of having received complete asssurances that the mistaken identity business had been resolved, and my name and address removed from the computer file since I had nothing to do with the taxe d'habitation that was demanded of me, in fact it was not...and yes, the demands had been, again, sent to a very old address of mine in the UK (which I had left 8 years previously) and had never reached me.

Touch wood, since then, it seems to have truly been cleared up. But you just never know.

These repeated episodes shook me to the core. As a French person myself (having returned to France after spending most of my adult life abroad), I felt completely unsafe, and at the mercy of some computer or person error. And being French, I am lucky as I can at least try to communicate - and spent days on the phone with a variety of people. As Patinfrance describes, you are guilty unless you can prove yourself innocent. Pay first, and then try to sort it out later. I felt almost persecuted, and certainly victimized, and even considered leaving the country, not to return, since the state has so much power - it felt, at the time, just one step away from a banana republic  at least in France, you don't need to pay bribes, and eventually justice is restored. But it made me realise how much more civilised things are in the UK for those kinds of issues. France could learn a thing or two in that department.

 

[pachapapa]

But the english do have a choice.[:)][IMG]http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk244/pachapapa/LegalServitudes042.jpg[/IMG]

[Francelover]

Very familiar stories.

Never got to that level with us but we have had lots of trouble with tax demands.

In 2006 we got a snotty letter saying we hadn't paid (true - but we had already notified them that we hadn't received a demand and asked them to sort it out and said we were waiting for notification of the amount).

We went to the local office where they rather sniffily said they couldn't understand why we hadn't got the demand and showed us a copy. The demand had, in fact, been sent to our old UK address where we had not lived since 2002 - four years previously.

We asked how they could get the address right for 2003-2005 AND on the snotty chasing letter but not on the demand itself.  No answer, apology or even recognition that they'd done anything wrong.

In 2008 the demand arrived at the correct address - but was now addressed to my mother in law!

So far, we have not received the bill due at the start of this year and are trying to find out what's happened to it. No dount it's gone back t our old 2002 address again. 

It is a genuine shambles and frankly, a disgrace. Nobody seems to know or care. Many French people seem to acept this sort of event and service rather fatalistically in terms of c'est la vie.  It's a pity really.

 

  

 

 

 

[JohnKay]

Thanks for replies everyone. It's been good to hear of so many others having the same familiar go-round with twits though I certainly hope all of you came to successful resolutions. I'm not there any more and just can't be bothered dealing with faceless numbskulls who don't yet seem to have e-mail at their disposal.

I know I should never say "never" but at 63 my time en France is over. I bought and renovated two houses since 1991 and though I love France I never want to own anything there again. I can always do a house swap for holidays.

Like you good people I've also had my dealings over time with lazy, incompetent and rude government and bank "lifers" who can't be sacked for anything short of being up to the elbows in the cashbox or having someone's knickers down on the boss's desk.

Rather than wasting time on the telephone being shunted from one minion to another, all unwilling to do anything save get themselves a fresh coffee, I've decided to let them come to me on my ground if they wish. The sum isn't large so it would be a small claims court matter here and I'm more comfortable in my own language and in a less arbitrary system where I am not guilty from the outset.

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm heading to the frigo now for a cool one!

 

Cheers and bonne chance a tous!

[ebaynut]

[quote user="JohnKay"]

Thanks for replies everyone. It's been good to hear of so many others having the same familiar go-round with twits though I certainly hope all of you came to successful resolutions. I'm not there any more and just can't be bothered dealing with faceless numbskulls who don't yet seem to have e-mail at their disposal.

I know I should never say "never" but at 63 my time en France is over. I bought and renovated two houses since 1991 and though I love France I never want to own anything there again. I can always do a house swap for holidays.

Like you good people I've also had my dealings over time with lazy, incompetent and rude government and bank "lifers" who can't be sacked for anything short of being up to the elbows in the cashbox or having someone's knickers down on the boss's desk.

Rather than wasting time on the telephone being shunted from one minion to another, all unwilling to do anything save get themselves a fresh coffee, I've decided to let them come to me on my ground if they wish. The sum isn't large so it would be a small claims court matter here and I'm more comfortable in my own language and in a less arbitrary system where I am not guilty from the outset.

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm heading to the frigo now for a cool one!

 

Cheers and bonne chance a tous!

[/quote]

The old saying is so true, "France is a beautiful country, its just the French that spoil it"  [Www]

[JohnKay]

Yes, its a superb country in so many ways and the people are fine by and large... except when some perceive a tiny advantage and the first response is to put the boots in. I'm convinced some of it comes from childhood and early school years where humiliation and control are rife. Then they grow up and get to sit behind a desk and it's their turn!

[Jay]

[quote user="JohnKay"]

I've had enough, these klowns don't even have an e-mail address to communicate with so I've decided to do as they do and ignore what I don't want, need or like: both the CA and the Tresor in Belves. My account is now blocked. But I don't care, I haven't been in France since 2007, have no assets there, don't want/need the account and I don't live in the EU. 

Basically I don't think they can do anything except fume.

Any other opinions about my "go to hell" attitude?

[/quote]

Don't be such a wimp, tell them to go stuff themselves!

[JohnKay]

Did that. Wrote "Stuffez-vous meme" on the letter! ;-)