Tax return for "mixed couple"

[5-element]

I am pulling my hair out while attempting to do our tax return, and wonder about others who may be in exactly the same particular situation.

- Husband's income is from British pension, taxable in France. He has an S1, so no CSG/CRDS

- My main income is from British pension too, but since I have a tiny French pension I was  automatically propelled out of S1 and medical care being paid for by the UK. I became "à la charge du French health system" - which means that I should/must pay CSG and now, also CRDS?

But... we are taxed jointly as a couple we are a foyer fiscal, and so have a Revenu Fiscal de Reference which is for both our incomes.

Last year (first year in that configuration)  I specified that we were both "a la charge" of a different health system, and just entered my own British income  in 2047 VIII with a note. I reported the sum in 8TL of the blue form (not even sure if that was right, but it passed!)

This year, with the novelty of  my income being additionally subjected to CRDS as well as CSG, and with exonerations  calculated from the JOINT RFR 2009,  I am concerned that we may end up having to pay CRDS and CSG on our joint income - which is not right, since my husband has an S1.

Also, with the changes in the forms themselves, I am not sure if I have to  write anything on 2042 8 (Divers), line TK maybe? I know I have to enter my British income in VIII of 2047, lines 8TL and again 8TX.

Sorry if this seems very confused - I thought there must be other mixed (i.e. different health care) couples with similar difficulties, but with perhaps a much better understanding than I seem to possess....with me being French, it is even more infuriating and humiliating to be so dense about all this.[:'(]

[parsnips]

Hi,

 As I read it, only your pension income,( including the British), should be entered in 2047 VIII,  so I don't see how your husband's pensions could be subjected to CRDS/ CSG.

   You only enter pensions in 2042 8TK if they are paid in respect of government or local government service, in which case they are exempt from all french tax and social charges (regardless of how you get your health care ), under art.19 of the double tax convention.

[5-element]

Parsnips, many thanks. You are so clear and matter-of-factly, now that you say it,  it seems obvious, whereas I get into such a muddle with official forms!  You might have saved me a lot of concern and uncertainty...[:)]

[NormanH]

I thought that my situation was complicated...

Thank goodness for parsnips [B]

Your point "since I have a tiny French pension I was  automatically propelled out of

S1 and medical care being paid for by the UK. I became "à la charge du

French health system" -"

is exactly what I have been talking about with mixed success on  other threads, notably about the French pension gained by having been an AE

[Patf]

Our situation is similar to yours, but no french pension.

I have a rule that I fill the forms in just as I did last year, but with amounts adjusted as usually something goes up or down. The forms we received seem to be the same as last year. I do this with UK tax as well.

Because I guess it's only if they see something glaringly different that they start to ask questions. Up to now this has worked - we'll see this time.

[5-element]

[quote user="NormanH"]
Your point "since I have a tiny French pension I was  automatically propelled out of S1 and medical care being paid for by the UK. I became "à la charge du French health system" -"
is exactly what I have been talking about with mixed success on  other threads, notably about the French pension gained by having been an AE
[/quote]

Indeed you did talk about that quite a lot, I watched those threads like a hawk!  But getting into the French system via AE is different insofar as people on the forum, British expats in general,   join the French system at the end of their working life, so their last contributions will be paid to France.

Mine is the opposite: I first worked in France, then in England - so England is the last country where I paid my contributions.

I know that WHICH country you paid your last contributions/cotisations does matter a lot  (although not to CSG/CRDS) - and now I can't remember in which context it matters[:'(] sorry!!! (It might come back)

[NormanH]

The most important thing is that if you live in a country which pays a pension (however small) technically it is that country which is responsible for your health costs, logical enough, since if you live there it will be that country which provides the care.

However quite a few people have found that they get S1 forms from the UK anyway.

I know that normally I should pay CSG/CRDS on my French pensions, but as they are so small they have waived this in the past.

I suspect that under the new way of filling in the form they will want to charge again.

Quite how they would differentiate between the French pension, which is liable, and the UK ones which aren't if all are lumped together I don't know.

Perhaps I should enter the French ones in section VIII but it wasn't necessary before...

[5-element]

Norman, are you sure that there are people who still get an S1 from the UK even though they have a French pension???

I certainly never had the choice - I had my S1/E121 from age 60 as I got my UK state pension (for most of my working life). As soon as I was 65 and was entitled to the minute French pension from all those years ago, my S1 was withdrawn and I had to be part of the French system. I would have thought this applies across the board, no choice???

Norman, from what I understand of the new, not just the French one, as from this year's declaration.

But surely you don't have to enter your French pensions in section VIII, since this is for "income from abroad"...only your British pension?

There you go, I have managed to confuse myself all over again. Small comfort that you, such a good researcher, are uncertain too...

I would be more than reluctant to go to the Hotel des Impots in the hope of clarification - they have been wrong, and firmly so, in the past.

[NormanH]

You are right about section VIII, so sorry if I confused you. It was latish, but I don't drink any more so there is no real excuse[:$]

I think you should simply do as parsnips clearly explained.

As for the S1 the situation you describe is as I understand it should be, but each time I say this there are posters who say that so and so has got an S1 despite having acquired a  small French pension, or who contest my interpretation of the European legislation.

Perhaps the UK authorities acted as they did in your case because you are French? That is to say they automatically assumed your major pension would come from France.

In any case from what parsnips says it looks as if your combined UK pensions are not subject to CSG etc, although I presume the French one has it taken at source. I think mine used to, until they decided that it was too small to bother.

I am not 100% certain on this last bit, so apologies if I am introducing another  red herring..

[5-element]

No problem Norman, I will do as Parsnips advised - it's just that I would like to really understand and know all the nitty-gritty. not just my own situation, but in general.

 

I am not sure that being French makes any difference, and I also don't know what was the sequence of events in my "basculing" from UK healthcare to French healthcare. It seemed to happen simultaneously, so I don't know which country decided first that it is CMU/French medical care from now on. I now suspect that those people who were able to keep their S1 are those who FIRST contributed to UK system at the beginning of their working life, and then the French one, in that order. Whereas I did the reverse.

Why it should make a difference, I don't know.