House and contents insurance

[f1steveuk]

We have had our home in France now for ten years. We were advised on our insurance the day we signed for the property, which we have been paying for the entire ten years.

We stay with relatives in the UK, where we visit often, as that is where we earn our money. We recently went from my mother in laws to my brothers in the UK, and told Credit Agricole.

Suddenly (well four months after as it took them that long to manage to change the address) they CA contacted me to say I should not have insured my house as my primary residence, even though it's the only one I own, and it's where EVERYTHING I own is, and that I must reduce this cover to one for a "maision secondaire", pleased as punch, telling me it would cost less. Trouble is, it doesn't cover me for the loss of anything of value. like my guitars, or jewelery, well, anything, and it reduces greatly my contents cover.

I told them I was happy to continue paying full whack, as I do with my property taxes, but they tell me  I can't, but nor will they sort me out a policy that does give me the cover I require.

So, anyone else in the same boat, and how and where do you insure?  Is it correct? Is there a British company that will cover a home abroad?

Any, and I mean any help gratefully received, because I am at my wits end with them!!

[andyh4]

I never had a problem with AXA France Steve.  We increased the value of the contents with no problem from their nominal level.  They reduced the premiums slightly when we later converted from Maison secondaire to principale.  Further, although there are posts that say AXA are very difficult with claims, when we did have to claim it was settled amicably. 

[EuroTrash]

The issue with maison secondaires is that they're unoccupied for long stretches. It seems a valid point to me. Mine is technically my maison principale, I work and pay my taxes in France and I'm there more than I am anywhere else, but having discussed it with my insurers I have it insured as a maison secondaire because I travel a lot with my work, and the maison principale policy would limit the time it can be left unoccupied without invalidating the policy. So rather than risk putting in a claim and having it turned down because I'd been away for 32 days and I'm only allowed to be away for 30 days, it seemed more sensible to accept reduced cover but know that the insurance will be valid if needed.

That's with MMA.

[f1steveuk]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]The issue with maison secondaires is that they're unoccupied for long stretches. It seems a valid point to me. Mine is technically my maison principale, I work and pay my taxes in France and I'm there more than I am anywhere else, but having discussed it with my insurers I have it insured as a maison secondaire because I travel a lot with my work, and the maison principale policy would limit the time it can be left unoccupied without invalidating the policy. So rather than risk putting in a claim and having it turned down because I'd been away for 32 days and I'm only allowed to be away for 30 days, it seemed more sensible to accept reduced cover but know that the insurance will be valid if needed.

That's with MMA.[/quote]

Yes, I understand the point that they (and you) are making regarding being there to protect the property, but my concern is that they wont let me cover my contents and valuables, as either an extra payment, or a custom built policy, which is, surely, the whole point of insurance!!?? Though they did offer me the option of putting all my "valuables" in secure storage each time I'm not there!!

Never had a lot of luck with AXA, but if they'll cover my home and contents, they'll get the business, I want peace of mind!!

[Sprogster]

I use Axa France and because my house is a maison secondaire there is a restriction on the maximum I can insure the contents for and valuable items such as jewelry are not covered if we are not in residence at the time of claim. As a result my contents are probably slightly under insured but according to the French insurance broker I deal through, there is no company that will offer full cover for a second home.

[EuroTrash]

Putting your valuables in secure storage when you're not there sounds like a very sensible idea. It doesn't seem terribly wise to leave guitars and jewellery in an unoccupied property for long stretches. Crime-free France is a myth, holiday home break-ins are apparently increasing, and insurance companies are unlikely to insure a risk if it's odds on there will be a claim sooner or later. The whole point of insurance is for the insurance companies to make a profit, which means avoiding high risks.

[Pierre ZFP]

I found I was paying way over the odds when I was with Axa so I cancelled that and shopped around

I just got an email from a UK broker,   Staysure   about second home insurance, I haven't checked it out (and I take your point it is not a second home) but maybe they would cover everything?

[f1steveuk]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Putting your valuables in secure storage when you're not there sounds like a very sensible idea. It doesn't seem terribly wise to leave guitars and jewellery in an unoccupied property for long stretches. Crime-free France is a myth, holiday home break-ins are apparently increasing, and insurance companies are unlikely to insure a risk if it's odds on there will be a claim sooner or later. The whole point of insurance is for the insurance companies to make a profit, which means avoiding high risks.[/quote]

I thought their comment "put your items in secure storage" quite rude actually, why the hell should I? I go home (note home!!) a minimum of every six weeks, it would cost a fortune to store, plus I want my stuff there when I get home, I just want to open my front door, and settle straight in, not organise going to get my stuff back every time. I thought the suggestion was typically lazy, easier than offering a solution or heaven forbid, organising some cover for me.

If it was a "maision secondaire" yep, I'd agree, but it's not, it IS my home, I should be able to have whatever I want in my home. It's fully shuttered, window barred and double alarmed, you'd think an insurance company could "build" a policy? It's what they do!!

Frustrated? Me? Oh yes!

[EuroTrash]

Getting confusing.

If you really do consider this 'home', why are you giving your bank a 'home address' in the UK? If you are classed as resident in France and filling in your French tax forms as a resident (albeit paying income tax in the UK) then it is your residence principale, so you'd still need to look into how long you're permitted to leave the house empty for at a stretch - but it would be a different problem from them insisting that it's a residence secondaire, and it might have a different solution.

I do understand your frustration but it's the same everywhere, no insurer including UK insurers is keen on covering possessions in houses that are left unoccupied for long stretches of time. Since they consider that the chances of you claiming are so high, the premium would be so high that there would be no point people taking the insurance because it would be as cheap to replace the stuff themselves. If you think it's safe, you'd be better off doing without insurance and carrying the risk yourself.

[f1steveuk]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Getting confusing.

If you really do consider this 'home', why are you giving your bank a 'home address' in the UK? If you are classed as resident in France and filling in your French tax forms as a resident (albeit paying income tax in the UK) then it is your residence principale, so you'd still need to look into how long you're permitted to leave the house empty for at a stretch - but it would be a different problem from them insisting that it's a residence secondaire, and it might have a different solution.

I do understand your frustration but it's the same everywhere, no insurer including UK insurers is keen on covering possessions in houses that are left unoccupied for long stretches of time. Since they consider that the chances of you claiming are so high, the premium would be so high that there would be no point people taking the insurance because it would be as cheap to replace the stuff themselves. If you think it's safe, you'd be better off doing without insurance and carrying the risk yourself.[/quote]

Strangely, when we brought the house, I told CA that I worked in the UK, and that we stayed with relatives, because we don't own any other properties. Because it was Britline, the insisted on sending everything to the UK address, their choice. It was also them that worked out, and arranged the insurance, that they now say is wrong. I consider it home, because it is, it's the only property I own, and it's where I keep everything I own, I merely chuck stuff in a bag to work in the UK. The French are more than happy to take the taxes for the property as my principal residence.

When I was in the UK, and working in F1, my insurance company built a policy for me, and it wasn't that pricey.

[andyh4]

Unfortunately "only property" does not denote maison principale - this is one of the rare occasions where how long you stay there is generally the deciding factor.  Maison principale denotes main residence and not main property - a subtle difference.

 

We sold our house in the Uk and bought in France - but because we were living (most of the time and in rented accommodation) and I was working in Germany, our French house was deemed secondaire until the OH moved full time.

[f1steveuk]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Unfortunately "only property" does not denote maison principale - this is one of the rare occasions where how long you stay there is generally the deciding factor.  Maison principale denotes main residence and not main property - a subtle difference.

 

We sold our house in the Uk and bought in France - but because we were living (most of the time and in rented accommodation) and I was working in Germany, our French house was deemed secondaire until the OH moved full time.

[/quote]

Yep, that is the crux of the problem, but I fail to understand why an insurance company cannot come up with something, I know I'm not the only person doing it!!

[EuroTrash]

"The French are more than happy to take the taxes for the property as my principal residence."

I think you'll find that the French are taxing the property as a maison secondaire, which in some cases is higher than if it were your principal residence.

The income tax people and the taxe d'habitation people are joined up, and there are concessions on taxe d'hab for French tax payers. If a tax return is received from that address, it is automatically considered your residence principale and your taxe d'habitation is calculated on your declared income. You wouldn't pay more than the basic rate that you pay on the property as a masion secondaire, but in some circumstances, for instance if you're on a low income, you may get a reduction or an exoneration.

So in practical terms, the test for maison principale/secondaire is the annual income declaration to the tax office - because all residents of France are obliged by law to submit one, and they are all obliged to submit it from their maison principale. Therefore, no tax return=not your maison principale.

This is also the main test used to establish whether CGT is due when you sell. If you claim it was your residence principale and therefore not liable to CGT, they'll expect to see evidence that you've been declaring your taxes from that address, ie your avis d'imposition/non-imposition.

Doesn't help with the insurance but was just to clarify the way the property is being taxed for taxe d'hab. As I recall it's possible to work this out from your avis. In my département the deadlines are different too, the bills for holiday home are sent out first and the rest are a month later (I think, but it could be vice versa).

Have you tried UK insurers? Some people use them for homes in France.

[f1steveuk]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"The French are more than happy to take the taxes for the property as my principal residence."

I think you'll find that the French are taxing the property as a maison secondaire, which in some cases is higher than if it were your principal residence.

The income tax people and the taxe d'habitation people are joined up, and there are concessions on taxe d'hab for French tax payers. If a tax return is received from that address, it is automatically considered your residence principale and your taxe d'habitation is calculated on your declared income. You wouldn't pay more than the basic rate that you pay on the property as a masion secondaire, but in some circumstances, for instance if you're on a low income, you may get a reduction or an exoneration.

So in practical terms, the test for maison principale/secondaire is the annual income declaration to the tax office - because all residents of France are obliged by law to submit one, and they are all obliged to submit it from their maison principale. Therefore, no tax return=not your maison principale.

This is also the main test used to establish whether CGT is due when you sell. If you claim it was your residence principale and therefore not liable to CGT, they'll expect to see evidence that you've been declaring your taxes from that address, ie your avis d'imposition/non-imposition.

Doesn't help with the insurance but was just to clarify the way the property is being taxed for taxe d'hab. As I recall it's possible to work this out from your avis. In my département the deadlines are different too, the bills for holiday home are sent out first and the rest are a month later (I think, but it could be vice versa).

Have you tried UK insurers? Some people use them for homes in France.[/quote]

Again, just to confuse the issue, the Tresor's office say we are paying for a maision principal, and I do get a form each year, and they understand I earn and pay my income tax in the UK, or as they see it in the EU.  Maybe I'm just ackward!!

Yep, looking at UK insurers at the moment.

[f1steveuk]

Funnily enough I can insure the house as a holiday home, with better cover, for a lot less ( £299 a year as opposed to 79 Euros a month, or half that for secondaire), through the AA, so Pacifica are going to have to significantly raise their game!!