What a brilliant and novel idea!

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]What's to service in an electric car with an engine that has one moving part, ................ [/quote]

Apart from the fact that most electric cars have more than one motor, and associated gears - 

only all the other bits - bearings, suspension, brakes, steering, climate control, all of which will also require servo motors and actuators when the car becomes autonomous, unending must-have gizmos such as self opening and closing doors and boots, and the myriad of microcontrollers necessary for the CAN bus system, which is probably the best earner that car manufacturers have come up with of late.

Contrary to what you seem to think, the ECU does a great deal more than run the engine in current cars, and do you really believe the battery and charging system, or fuel cell have no controls and monitoring sensors?

You seem rather more biased toward the sales bit than the fixing bit.

I'm still not a convert, I'd never be able to afford the maintenance, although an electric car might look nice parked in the driveway[:D].

[Cathar Tours]

Your way to far behind in technology and you didn't read what I said. The engine management software is removed from the ECU and replaced with other software for controlling the electric motors etc. The name of the ECU has changed as well, it's called an Electronic Control Unit where as before it was called Engine Control Unit, well at least it is where I work. Your right in that it controls a lot of other things but that is not my interest.

The drive chain is direct drive AC brushless motors and currently a replacement motor costs around 1,000 USD but carry a ten year manufacturers warranty. This price is expected to fall by around 50% over the next few years.

Remember these cars are not serviced, they don't need to be, they are simply inspected every year for the length of warranty and any parts are covered so maintenance is cut to zero.

I don't fix things I write the software but of course I have to know the kit that the ECU is connected to for automation and powertrain. We have moved much further on from what we call the "Noddy cars" (because of the way they look) that Google have built. I am not trying to sell you a Ford car especially as you can't buy one because its not currently for sale. I have no interest in selling things.

As to looking nice on the driveway, you wouldn't know the difference. It would look like any other car and cost the same.

I am afraid your be limited to second hand cars with no warranty in 21 years time (if your still alive - no offence intended) if your in the UK or France, even less in other countries. Some companies have already stopped development of fossil fuelled cars, Volvo (Geely) for instance and Land Rover/Jaguar. That does not mean you can't buy them but there will be no updated version. Ford intends to do the same within the next 10 years and they are the most sold cars by popularity in the world.

[Théière]

I am seriously looking forward to getting an electric car!  On the list at the moment is the Kia eNiro 64kw near 300 miles (bit less at higher speed)  Brakes last a lot longer through regenerative braking rather than friction.

Other parts mentioned do not wear out that soon but off the list are oils, filters (fuel, air & oil) brakes, cam belts, head gaskets, clutches, dual mass flywheels, exhausts, injectors, spark plugs etc etc.

Let fossil cars become museum pieces, their funny engines that accelerate the piston to high speed stop it dead and send it back up again. Plenty of companies now testing solid fuel battery cells and that will be the game changer.

VW are going to produce EV's without all of the additional electronics so the price will be very comparable to fossil cars.

[nomoss]

Well, that writes me off, together with my opinions, I guess[:)]

[Théière]

[quote user="nomoss"]Well, that writes me off, together with my opinions, I guess[:)]

[/quote]

Its a paradigm shift in what we have grown up with so hardly surprising. I have been watching the developments over the last year, originally a skeptic, now I am looking forward to the change. Noticed a high speed charger on the A10 just north of Tours, very handy for a quick top up and only 8 euros at the moment. then charge at home. Should make the night/day tariff finally worth something.

[Cathar Tours]

I know nothing of the Kia eNiro because the R&D dept has not got hold of a European model to test yet (Yes they do test their competitors cars as do all manufacturers).

One thing to watch out for when you test drive any electric car is handling especially over rough roads. In comparison to a fossil fuel car they will weigh more and it depends on how well they have built the suspension as to the quality of ride. VW cars (VW e-Up) for instance has by far the best ride. Always road test and try and hit a pothole or at least go over a very bumpy road. The predecessor to the eNero, the Scout didn't handle at all well but that does not automatically mean the new model won't handle badly.

Get a wall charger at home which should bring the charge time down on average by two thirds from using a normal power plug. Means you can get the whole charge off peak in 6 hours or less.

Look around at electricity suppliers because some do deals. They either supply the wall charger for nothing or give you free miles. Don't know about France but some countries (UK and Germany) give you grants for wall chargers.

By the way the car you mentioned has a battery capacity of 64kwh but the motor is 150kw which equates to 201bhp which is reasonably nifty and like most electric cares the acceleration mode can be overridden on occasion to give you a big boost which is the beauty of electric cars.

Tesla are quite good at showing just how sporty their cars can be. The Tesla X which is seven (adult) seater MPV can do 0 to 60 in 2.28 seconds that's faster than Bugatti Chiron and keep up with the Veyron, Porsche 918 Spider, Aston Martin Vulcan and the new Ferrari 812 Superfast all of which cost more than 3.5 times more than the Tesla and most carry only two people. It's limit is the batteries although the 2017 model and above give a 350 miles range if driven normally. I would say that's pretty good for an MPV.

[nomoss]

My wife and I use a (1994) Alfa for shopping and other local chores, but the car used for longer trips is a 1996 petrol-engined Audi A4 Avant, which has very little superfluous electronic gadgetry compared with current models, although I have added a dash camera.

I was fortunate to find the Audi 3 years ago, with a very low mileage. It has now done just under 60,000 km, and I hope to keep it for another 20 years or more. I bought it with part of the proceeds of my 1973 NSU Ro80, oddly enough made in the same factory, which was in regular use, and which I recently sold for around five times what I paid for it in 1985.

I religiously follow Audi's maintenance schedule, and also look daily at a quite active UK-based VAG forum in order to pick up on any comments on, or problems with, my particular model.

Most of the problems appearing in my car's section of the forum are to do with diesel engines - I suppose there were a lot of these sold in the UK, or with mechanical problems due to wear and tear and corrosion, mainly due to the salt with which UK roads are lathered every year.

There are very few problems with electronics mentioned. Those that are, usually concern the "comfort" module, which controls the interior lighting and door locking, and the "climate control" module, both of which I have replaced on my car.

On the other hand, looking at problems with newer cars, a large number concern advisory, display and warning systems which "aid the driver", sensors, and software "glitches".

Just saying .................

EDIT: People usually resort to the forum to ask questions when main dealers have either failed to fix problems, or quoted enormous sums for repairs which they can't believe should be necessary on relatively new cars.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"] ............... 

As to birdshit on sensors etc. well you don't honestly believe this has not been thought of and solutions found?..................... .[/quote]

Such as? Just what are your solutions to such obvious problems? Even more sensors? - sensors for the sensors?

Aviation system designers have been trying for years to make sensors replace someone actually looking out of the window, with far from complete success, and often with spectacular failure.

Saying that "this has been thought out" is not good enough. At the end of the day, you and your lot just balance the cost of compensation for your f*ckups against the commercial advantages.

EDIT: [:D]

[Théière]

That is the unfortunate truth, no matter what we built on automated assembly lines there would always be the one occasion when...........

[Cathar Tours]

Like in a car the sensors of which there are many are deep inside the engine etc. where they are protected. Around the engine there are cowlings in cars and planes.

Over 70% of a modern control unit on a car are there to control the engine so it works efficiently which means less pollution. Of course some companies can cheat as we can see from a well documented case.

These electronic systems can be much better than traditional mechanical systems, more reliable than a human being and can save you money on repairs.

A couple of examples. I take it your car has electric windows? In the distant past they were just an electric motor that made the window go up and down which you could stop where you wanted and relied on mechanical microswitches and relays. The problem was that people got trapped or even killed by them (and yes there have been cases particularly with children). They got round this by fitting a crude clutch system (sometimes referred to as the regulator), As your car got older and things like seals round the window became harder with age the window could stop half way open (or closed). Now there are electronic system fitted. They measure the current drawn by the motor and when the current peaks like when the window arrives at its maximum movement it will stop the motor If it is obstructed they will automatically open the window because it knows how long it takes to move from full open to fully closed and knows where it because of the time used from when the operators switch is activated. Of course they suffer from the same problem with the seals etc. but this system can be recalibrated to overcome this issue. Have a look on your Audi forum and you will find out how to do it. It means you don't have to buy new seals (unless they are so old they have gone completely hard) and if your not mechanically minded pay for a technician to replace them.

Automatic outside lighting is something else that has saved lives and stops idiots driving in conditions where clearly they should have their lights on.

My point however was that with electric powered cars you don't need all these engine control electronics, you only need a few. A modern family car has anywhere from 100 to 200 sensors on the engine depending on if it is diesel or petrol and then up to another 80 all round the car. An electric car has to have 15 to 20 sensors on the engine depending on if it has a gearbox and the maximum you will find is between 20 to 30. Many of theses sensors are not actually on the drive train but the batteries for temperature monitoring.

[nomoss]

I know.

I spent a large portion of my life working on very large computer controlled installations, much of it before the technology filtered slowly down to the automotive industry as it became cheaper.

I also know where the vast majority of problems are. Sensors.

BTW, my Audi, although it has less equipment controlled by its ECU than current offers, and does not use a CAN bus system, still has quite enough for my requirements.

Surprisingly I am quite mechanically, and electrically minded, and have a genuine VAG code reader contemporary with the car, and an excellent (Bentley) manual. Other information such as detailed service instructions and OEM part numbers is available on line, so am quite capable of caring for it myself.

[Cathar Tours]

OK and this large proportion of your life was designing and making cars?

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]OK and this large proportion of your life was designing and making cars?[/quote]

At least that reply is bit more pleasant than your original one[:D]

Reply: No more than yours has been.

[Cathar Tours]

Yes I deleted/changed it because I realised I was lowering myself to your level and I am better than that, better than you.

So you did spend a little time designing cars and their systems then. My career is short at the moment but I have a lifetime ahead.

For your information the CAN system currently used in cars is not good enough for the next generation, it's too slow (1mbs). New technology needs much higher speeds. Your also totally wrong about sensors, their technology has moved on by a huge amount as well, very few ever fail these days.

[Chancer]

A lifetime to learn some humility, I was probably worse than you at your age, makes me shudder to look back.

 

200 sensors on an average engine?

 

Bet that you cannot name even one in 10 of them.

[richard51]

The thermostat on our tumble dryer went a couple of weeks ago.

All this talk of technology - but hey what is the failure rate compared to human brains when it comes to macho driving.